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1 STATE OF NEW YORK
LEGISLATIVE TASK FORCE
2 ON DEMOGRAPHIC RESEARCH
AND REAPPORTIONMENT
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4 CONGRESSIONAL AND STATE LEGISLATIVE REDISTRICTING
5 Public Hearing
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City Hall Chambers, City Hall
11 2nd Floor, 38 Hawley Street
Binghamton, New York
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Friday, May 4, 2001
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1 COMMITTEE MEMBERS:
2 SENATOR DEAN G. SKELOS, Co-Chairman
ASSEMBLYMAN WILLIAM L. PARMENT, Co-Chairman
3 SENATOR RICHARD A. DOLLINGER
ASSEMBLYMAN CHRIS ORTLOFF
4 VINCENT P. BRUY
ROMAN B. HEDGES
5 SENATOR HOWARD ASAMI
ASSEMBLYMAN JAY GOODARD
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1 INDEX
Page
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2 Rick Lucci 11
Mayor
3 Binghamton, New York
4 Thomas Santulli 13
County Executive
5 Chemung County
6 James Hare 25
Councilman
7 City of Elmira
8 Jeffrey Kraham 37
County Executive
9 Broome County
10 Peter Ward 44
Chair
11 Tioga County Legislature
12 Frank Meyer 49
President
13 Lockheed Martin Systems
14 Henrik N. Dullea 58
Vice President for University Relations
15 Cornell University
(Exhibit One, 2 pages)
16
David Dawson 68
17 Dawson Metal Company, Inc.
18 Howard Howlett 72
Representative
19 Local Health Care
20 Thomas Rutan 80
Vice President
21 Elmira College
22 Tommy Rogue 87
Youth Division
23
G. Thomas Tranter, Jr. 89
24 Director of Government Relations
Corning, Inc.
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0004
1 Alex DePersis 95
President and CEO
2 Broome Chamber of Commerce
3 Martha Sauerbrey 100
Executive Director
4 Tioga County Chamber of Commerce
5 Dr. Thomas Kelly 103
Vice President of External Affairs
6 Binghamton University
7 Steve Sweeney 107
Chautauqua County Legislature
8
Elsie Wager 114
9 President
New York State League of Women Voters
10 (Exhibit Two, one page)
11 Christopher Norton 128
Business Owner and Founder
12 Binghamton, NY
13 John Solak 130
Citizen
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Bonnie Wilson 137
15 Citizen
16 Dave Ketchum 139
Citizen
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Patti Nedren 143
18 Citizen
19 Eileen Hamlin 149
Citizen
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John Brady 153
21 Citizen
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1 SENATOR DEAN G. SKELOS, CO-CHAIRMAN,
2 LEGISLATIVE TASK FORCE ON DEMOGRAPHIC RESEARCH AND
3 REAPPORTIONMENT: Good morning. I would like to
4 welcome you to our second hearing of the Legislative
5 Task Force on Demographic Research and
6 Reapportionment, and this is the second of 11
7 hearings that we'll be holding throughout the state.
8 Yesterday, we were in Syracuse. My
9 name is Dean Skelos; I'm a State Senator and Co-Chair
10 of the Task Force. And with me today are my
11 Co-Chair, Assemblyman Bill Parment; on my right is
12 Senator Richard Dollinger; Assemblyman Chris Ortloff;
13 Vincent Bruy; and I believe Roman Hedges is on his
14 way.
15 As I mentioned yesterday, the purpose
16 of these hearings is to obtain input from you, the
17 citizens of the State, on the redistricting process
18 which will impact, as you know, all of our
19 Congressional State Senate and Assembly seats
20 throughout the State.
21 As you know also, the Task Force has
22 the obligation to meet the obligations of the U.S.
23 Constitution, one person/one vote, the State
24 Constitution, Federal laws, Court decisions; numerous
25 factors go into redistricting, including the
0006
1 recommendations that you are going to make.
2 I know that some people here feel very
3 strongly about how the line should be drawn. I know
4 that people feel very strongly about who their
5 representatives should be; and that is your right to
6 feel that way. I just want to point out that today
7 is more towards how lines will be drawn, as it is who
8 your representative will be until the next
9 redistricting is completed..
10 So, I would ask if we can maintain
11 testimony of five minutes. We have many, many
12 speeches today, and we want to make sure that
13 everybody has the opportunity to say their piece.
14 So, if we could keep it to five minutes; and, again,
15 it concerns how the District lines should be drawn,
16 as against who necessarily the representative of that
17 District is.
18 So, Bill, would you like to say
19 anything?
20 ASSEMBLYMAN WILLIAM L. PARMENT,
21 CO-CHAIRMAN, LEGISLATIVE TASK FORCE ON DEMOGRAPHIC
22 RESEARCH AND REAPPORTIONMENT: Yes. Thank you,
23 Senator. Welcome to this hearing. I think the
24 Senator has outlined quite well the purpose of our
25 hearing. We look forward to hearing your testimony.
0007
1 We have yet to put a pen to paper in an
2 effort to draw lines. It isn't that we haven't begun
3 drawing lines; it's that we first want to hear from
4 the public and groups of individuals across the State
5 about their desires for their associations with
6 neighboring communities and representation in the
7 House of Representatives at the Federal level, and
8 the State Assembly and the State Senate at the State
9 level.
10 We look forward to your comments, and
11 we note the presence of a good number of people here.
12 And to that end, this hearing is already a success,
13 because Democracy was to get people involved, and
14 express their point of view. And just by your
15 attendance here, you have indicated your interest in
16 the outcome of this process.
17 And so, we both do thank you for
18 coming.
19 FROM THE PANEL: Thank you very much.
20 It's great to be here.
21 I'd just like to add to my colleagues,
22 Senator Skelos, Assemblyman Parment, we face perhaps
23 a more difficult task this year than we have faced in
24 the past, because pursuant to the United States
25 Constitution, we have only 29 Congressional seats.
0008
1 We have 31 in this State, as everyone knows. So, we
2 have the difficult task of devising a new plan for
3 our Congressional seats that will add two fewer
4 members from New York. And I think that's a
5 formidable challenge for all of us.
6 And I want to emphasize one thing that
7 my colleague Senator Skelos said: This is really a
8 discussion about the lines, about the communities,
9 and about the geography of New York, more than it is
10 about any one particular member of Congress, member
11 of New York State Senate, or member of the Assembly.
12 It's about how to preserve everyone's power of their
13 vote under the one man/one vote theory; and how,
14 under very complicated rules and law that is involved
15 in our court system, to make sure that our plan of
16 reapportionment is fair and even-handed; recognizes
17 communities and interests on the State level; and at
18 the same time makes sure that everyone has effective
19 participation in the electoral process. I think
20 that's one of the most important things we do.
21 It's going to be a difficult task.
22 Your being here gives us guidance on helping draw up
23 a plan that will meet the communities of New York,
24 the various parts of New York, meet their needs. But
25 I want to, again, emphasize, as Senator Skelos did,
0009
1 this is not necessarily about Congress, the House or
2 about anyone else. It's about communities in this
3 State, and how we organize them and serve their
4 interests.
5 Lastly, I would just mention, and I
6 don't want to disturb the hearing, but I think there
7 are a number of critical things that this Commission
8 still has to do in its organization; that is, get
9 more information out to the public; get the
10 redistricting data sent out on our website so that
11 more of this information is available, and so that
12 the public can participate in a better way with new
13 technology in the process of the difficult task of
14 reapportionment itself.
15 Again, thank you.
16 MR. SKELOS: Before we go on, I just
17 want to acknowledge the presence of my colleague in
18 helping him -- thanking him for helping me set up
19 this day. Senator Howard Asami, thank you very much
20 for helping us out today.
21 SENATOR HOWARD ASAMI: Thank you,
22 Senator Skelos; Congressmen. Thank you for coming
23 today, both the elected representatives of the people
24 and the average citizens who are here.
25 I said before that I thank all the
0010
1 people who come here, because it's really about you,
2 and your neighbors who aren't here, and your children
3 who are maybe working or at school; it's about the
4 future of the next ten years of the State, and how
5 the communities of the State will be organized to
6 provide themselves good representation.
7 Every two years in this country, for
8 over two hundred years, we have elected members of
9 Congress and our State Legislature. The communities
10 elect them.
11 I really don't want to just quote
12 what's already been said. I would ask you to direct
13 your testimony, to the extent that you feel inclined
14 to do so, to how your community relates to the other
15 communities in the region; not so much as to how you
16 relate to a person or persons who today may represent
17 you. Tomorrow, any one of us may not be here, but
18 you and your community still will. In ten years, any
19 one of us may not be serving in any of these
20 legislative offices, but you and your communities
21 will still have interests and deserve representation.
22 And the way we draw these lines and create these
23 Districts is buying the effectiveness with which you
24 and your communities can represent yourself through
25 your elected official.
0011
1 So, with that tone, I welcome and look
2 forward to what you have to tell us.
3 MR. SKELOS: Thank you very much,
4 Senator. I want to point out how difficult it is,
5 unfortunately, that we have to lose two seats in New
6 York State. Ten years ago, when I was doing the
7 redistricting, we had to lose three seats. So,
8 unfortunately, in terms of our District
9 representation, our population is not holding out
10 with the south and the west. And hopefully, in the
11 next ten years, we will have an increase in
12 population so we do not have to lose any further
13 Federal representatives.
14 Our first person who would like to talk
15 to us, and I thank him for his hospitality, is Mayor
16 Rick Lucci (phonetic spelling) of the City of
17 Binghamton.
18 Mayor?
19 MR. RICK LUCCI, MAYOR OF BINGHAMTON,
20 NEW YORK: Thank you, Senator.
21 Members of the delegation, members of
22 the State Senate and State Assembly, on behalf of the
23 City of Binghamton - and I know I speak for those
24 residents here of the Southern Tier - we want to
25 thank you for making one of your stops the heart of
0012
1 the Southern Tier.
2 As you can see this morning, we have a
3 cross section of residents, special interests,
4 representatives, elected officials, concerned
5 citizens at all levels, but they care very deeply
6 about their Federal and State representation, and
7 know how important it is to us on a daily basis. And
8 the turnout here I seem to think speaks volumes for
9 the great deal of interest and concern we have for
10 our future, especially in regards to representation
11 at the Federal level.
12 There are a number of very concerned,
13 compassionate individuals here. As Mayor of the City
14 of Binghamton, my only request is - and I know I join
15 with others - is that as we know you have a very
16 difficult task in front you; to reduce two seats is a
17 real challenge, and my only hope is that in the
18 process, that the concept of community is protected;
19 that communities are considered and contained as a
20 whole; that communities are not split; that there's
21 not divisions where they will cause more pain than
22 they will gain for our citizens. And that's a very
23 difficult task.
24 I welcome you here. I wish you the
25 best of luck on a very difficult task, and I know
0013
1 that you will be hearing some very solid testimony
2 from a cross section of the Southern Tier. We've
3 always had a rich tradition of being involved, being
4 committed, and being very, very vocal in regards to
5 Federal and State representation.
6 Good luck to each and every one of you.
7 MR. SKELOS: Our first witness is
8 Thomas Santulli, Chemung County Executive.
9 MR. THOMAS SANTULLI, CHEMUNG COUNTY
10 EXECUTIVE: Good morning. Thank you very much. My
11 name is Tom Santulli. I reside in the town of
12 Elmira, and I am the Chemung County Executive.
13 Whenever I travel, I try to learn from
14 other people, and I've been reading about the City of
15 Binghamton trying to be a little more fiscally
16 conservative, as we all are. And I just want to
17 congratulate Mayor Lucci, because actually not having
18 an air conditioner -- when we left here from Elmira,
19 we turned the air conditioning on for you.
20 I would like to begin my remarks this
21 morning by thanking both Senator Skelos and
22 Assemblyman Parment, the Co-Chairs of the Task Force,
23 for agreeing to hold this hearing in the Southern
24 Tier. This certainly provides an excellent
25 opportunity for all interested citizens in our
0014
1 region, regardless of their political persuasion, to
2 make their case for how they believe New York State's
3 Senate, Assembly and Congressional District
4 boundaries should be redrawn as a result of the 2000
5 census.
6 While recognizing that the composition
7 of our Senate and Assembly Districts is certainly of
8 critical importance to all New Yorkers, I
9 nevertheless want to focus on my comments today on
10 why I believe it is of paramount importance that our
11 current 31st Congressional District be maintained
12 approximately in its present form.
13 I would ask that you consider for a
14 moment what that form is. Physically, the District
15 covers all or part of ten counties running from Lake
16 Erie on the west along the Pennsylvania boarder,
17 through the Finger Lakes to the Chemung County-Tioga
18 County boarder on the east. There are no large
19 cities in the District, and its major population
20 centers are Jamestown, Corning, Elmira, Auburn and
21 suburban Ithaca. As a result, much of the 31st
22 District possesses a distinctly rural and relaxed
23 atmosphere, uncharacterized (sic) of more urbanized
24 areas. Additionally, this unique attribute of having
25 no preeminent metropolitan center has resulted in no
0015
1 one geographic area of the District gaining political
2 or economic dominance over the others.
3 While the District is culturally,
4 economically and ethically diverse, its residents
5 show an unusual ability to identify and pursue shared
6 goals. The ongoing effort to secure the Interstate
7 86 designation for all of New York State Route 17, is
8 an excellent example. Recognizing the regional
9 economic development potential inherent in gaining
10 Interstate status for Route 17, leaders in government
11 and business throughout the Southern Tier, but
12 primarily from within the 31st District, came
13 together to form the I-86 Coalition, which has led
14 the effort to secure funding for the completion of
15 various highway construction and rehabilitation
16 projects along the route's entire length, which must
17 be undertaken in order for the Federal Highway
18 Administration to grant Interstate designation. As a
19 group of small communities within a common rural
20 bond, we have joined together as equals to focus on
21 this goal in a way that probably would not have been
22 possible had we been fragmented and distant suburbs
23 of the larger urban centers of influence, Buffalo,
24 Rochester or Syracuse.
25 As I understand the current situation
0016
1 on reapportionment, New York State's loss of two
2 Congressional seats, the remaining 29 seats will
3 ideally contain approximately 655,000 persons. As
4 such, a major restructuring of the geographic
5 boundaries of those Congressional Districts that
6 cover relatively sparsely populated areas of the
7 State, is inevitable. Accepting that premise, I
8 recognize that the future composition of what is now
9 the 31st Congressional District will be quite
10 different than it is today.
11 It is my hope, and I believe the hope
12 of the vast majority of those I represent, that the
13 boundaries of our current District will be expanded
14 to meet the increased population target, rather than
15 having the District dismembered with portions simply
16 being added to other or more urban or metropolitan
17 districts. There is no doubt in my mind that if such
18 a dismantling were to occur, we would lose a great
19 deal of our regional economic development momentum
20 and identity.
21 I urge the members of the Task Force to
22 take whatever action is necessary to insure that this
23 does not happen.
24 Thank you for your time this morning,
25 and if you have any questions I would be pleased to
0017
1 answer them.
2 FROM THE PANEL: Yes. Mr. Executive,
3 we have a need in the 31st District to increase that
4 District by approximately 78,000 people to make it a
5 District sufficient to meet the new population
6 requirements of the State's new Congressional
7 Districts. With that understanding in mind, and your
8 statement, what would you think would be logically
9 those that should be added to a Southern Tier
10 District to create a District sufficient to make the
11 654,361 residents needed for a Congressional
12 District? That's sort of a multiple-choice question,
13 obviously.
14 MR. SANTULLI: Then there's multiple
15 answers. Out of all the neighbors, if I had my
16 business, it would be to go to the northeast. I
17 really do look at that -- I really feel strongly
18 that, you know, we in the Southern Tier, really, this
19 last year has been great for us; the last few years
20 economically. We've seen a lot of growth, and it
21 really is a lot of cities that get common problems,
22 common concerns and proper direction. I would love
23 to see us go into the Ithaca area.
24 I think our people share a lot of the
25 same interests, and I think that no one area would
0018
1 dominate. So, if I had a preference, it would be to
2 go to the northeast.
3 FROM THE PANEL: Is it still the
4 situation that many people in Elmira vacation or
5 summer up in the Finger Lakes Region?
6 MR. SANTULLI: Absolutely; yeah. Other
7 than Myrtle Beach, where everybody seems to spend
8 this period, where Elmira actually relocates itself,
9 the Finger Lakes really is the primary place where
10 people go, where you have the winery industry. The
11 Finger Lakes really is where most people go. We have
12 a lot of common -- we share a lot of interests, and
13 we work together on close projects.
14 FROM THE PANEL: Is there a preference
15 among lakes from your community?
16 MR. SANTULLI: Yeah, most of us are
17 boaters, and for some reason we like Seneca Lake the
18 best. That's our preference.
19 FROM THE PANEL: So, there are --
20 there's some ties between your community and some of
21 those north of Chemung County?
22 MR. SANTULLI: We really do. I mean,
23 one of the things that we have done is sell regional
24 tourism. It's the only way to sell tourism today.
25 And no one community is large enough to bring
0019
1 everybody, especially with the Corning Museum of
2 Glass being the hub of the tourist industry. That
3 whole Finger Lakes scenery in that direction really
4 does bring us together to form a overnight stay for
5 regional tourism.
6 FROM THE PANEL: And other ties are
7 there? You mentioned the Ithaca area. What other
8 ties are there besides the ones I mentioned; vacation
9 and the location of the lakes?
10 MR. SANTULLI: To me, it's everything;
11 it's tourism, it's economic connection. I mean,
12 again, we have been blessed with some economic
13 development, but Chemung County has just had a good
14 year. Everyone has to had a good year; Broome,
15 Schuyler, and everybody that surrounds us; Tioga
16 County. I think the common denominator is that if
17 this region is to stay healthy, we need to continue
18 to attract businesses into this area. And all of us
19 working together, knowing that we have equal
20 problems, equal things to be gained, that's the
21 common bond.
22 FROM THE PANEL: What planning region
23 is your county in, and what counties are involved in
24 that region?
25 MR. SANTULLI: You're going to ask me a
0020
1 tough one. Southern Tier Central, it does most of
2 our planning; Steuben, Chemung, Schuyler. I want to
3 make sure I didn't misunderstand the question here.
4 FROM THE PANEL: Chemung, Steuben,
5 Schuyler?
6 MR. SANTULLI: That's correct.
7 FROM THE PANEL: Okay. Just talking a
8 little bit about the movement, would Tioga fit into
9 that pattern?
10 MR. SANTULLI: Yes.
11 FROM THE PANEL: Both of those, both
12 the Tompkins and - I assume, the city of Ithaca - the
13 city of Ithaca is out, philosophically, the bounds of
14 the 31st?
15 MR. SANTULLI: They may be a little
16 more liberal than conservative Elmira. We have
17 common denominators.
18 FROM THE PANEL: Both Steuben and
19 Tompkins County and Tioga, are they currently in the
20 26th Congressional District?
21 MR. SANTULLI: Yes. Thank you.
22 MR. PARMENT: Mr. County Executive,
23 given your position and your opinion about matters of
24 the community's interests, and how this District
25 looks, I think, can tell a great weight. Let me ask
0021
1 you about the airports in the Southern Tier. Do they
2 serve areas outside the Southern Tier community?
3 MR. SANTULLI: Absolutely. Just as a
4 point of interest, and no Broome County executives
5 are here, of the three (sic) airports, Elmira,
6 Corning, Ithaca and Broome, Chemung is the only
7 airport to lose four percent. And we do have people
8 that come, especially to visit Corning. I mean,
9 Corning really has reshaped our region. And with
10 that, they do so much business, the people do come
11 from areas outside of the Elmira Airport.
12 FROM THE PANEL: And what about
13 hospital services; is it a problem, and can you
14 explore their hospital services; where most of those
15 patients go?
16 MR. SANTULLI: Yeah, we're very
17 fortunate. We have the Onondaga Hospital, St.
18 Joseph's Hospital, Broome County, Guthrie in
19 Pennsylvania, and Corning Hospital. Probably, you
20 could go outside for major surgical complications.
21 You may head toward the west direction. 80 percent
22 of what we do is done within our four-hospital
23 region.
24 MR. PARMENT: Okay. Tom, just one
25 other question. The Route 17 you talked about in
0022
1 this discussion, in the 31st Congressional District,
2 and there's also Route 390 that runs north. And one
3 of my questions is: If this were conceived as the
4 390 District, not 17 District, in other words, we
5 move north instead of east, certainly Wyoming County,
6 Livingston County, Ontario County, there are some
7 small cities, as there are in the current 31st
8 Congressional District, but that might be an area to
9 get that 80,000 people moving north instead of moving
10 east?
11 MR. SANTULLI: I understand what you're
12 talking about. And to me, the task that you have in
13 front of you is difficult, and I think we as elected
14 officials, you know, we can't always have our cake
15 and eat it, too. And to me, you have to look in all
16 directions to see where the fit is. And to me,
17 today, especially in upstate New York, our successes
18 are similar, and our problems are similar. So, I
19 think we can move in just about any direction. This
20 is a game of give and take, and we need to be smart
21 enough to know that. Either fit works, you know.
22 MR. PARMENT: I think part of your
23 testimony was that, from your point of view, with
24 your identity in this region, alliance with a big
25 city is not the solution; it's to keep the
0023
1 smaller-city, rural character of this region,
2 regardless of whether we move further north or east?
3 MR. SANTULLI: Absolutely. And I would
4 say this to you: That the squeaky wheel does get the
5 grease. We all know that. We're lumped in with
6 Syracuse, Rochester, Buffalo, wherever; that's where
7 the population center is. That's who's going to have
8 the individual attention. And I think we understand
9 that.
10 Today, the economic success that we've
11 had in the Southern Tier, especially in our county,
12 where probably over the last six years we've led the
13 State in the economic growth three out of those six
14 years, that's directly related to the fact that we
15 had our Congressmen and our Federal and State
16 officials and the local officials working together.
17 If didn't happen because of luck. It happened
18 because we were able to get the people that knew our
19 area, understood our area, the urban area, the rural
20 part of it - we are relatively small - and that
21 success is because of relationships. I believe if we
22 were in the large metropolitan area, most of that
23 economic development could not have occurred in our
24 county or in our region.
25 FROM THE PANEL: Thank you. I've
0024
1 listened to your answer, and I won't belabor the
2 point. Maybe I can ask you to respond to what I see
3 as the bottom line. If it's detrimental Southern
4 Tier communities, any one of them, in a District
5 dominated by Buffalo, Rochester or Syracuse, then are
6 you saying that it's essential to maintain a rural
7 District?
8 MR. SANTULLI: Absolutely. Rural
9 problems are different than urban problems. It takes
10 that continuity and a person to understand that, or
11 else all that we worked so hard to get, I think it's
12 going to go in the wrong direction.
13 FROM THE PANEL: This isn't a matter
14 who represents you; it's a matter of how you could
15 express your views through that person?
16 MR. SANTULLI: Absolutely.
17 FROM THE PANEL: Do you see other
18 Districts around the State that have the same
19 characteristic as primarily rural?
20 MR. SANTULLI: Absolutely. But, you
21 know, I think we are a little unique and. Let me
22 just -- even though we don't have any large
23 metropolitan one single area, I think we're a little
24 unique that we have this cluster of small average
25 cities that have some of the same problems of a large
0025
1 urban area. So, I think even though there are areas
2 that are not quite as rural, we're more of an
3 urban/rural setting, if there's such an animal. But
4 we really are a good cross section.
5 FROM THE PANEL: Thank you.
6 MR. SANTULLI: Thank you.
7 FROM THE PANEL: I want to thank you
8 very much.
9 MR. SANTULLI: Thank you.
10 MR. SKELOS: Our next is James Hare.
11 MR. JAMES HARE, COUNCILMAN, CITY OF
12 ELMIRA: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate the
13 opportunity to be here. When our County Executive
14 Mr. Santulli and I were colleagues on the City
15 Council, I was always reluctant to follow him
16 speaking because he never left me a lot of say. He's
17 made all the points, I think, very, very well. I can
18 only embellish them a little bit.
19 I appreciate the opportunity to be
20 here. I think these kinds of hearings are very
21 helpful, as you gentlemen said at the beginning; it
22 gives the grass roots a chance to speak. I am also
23 pleased to be a small part of the Millennium Project
24 organized by Congressman Houghton. This bipartisan,
25 grassroots effort is significant, and I hope the
0026
1 efforts made by so many will not fall on deaf ears.
2 I am a former Democratic Mayor of
3 Elmira, and currently a City Councilman who is about
4 to seek his tenth term on the Council. And I'm also
5 a member of the State Democratic Committee, and will
6 leave here to go to Albany for the State Democratic
7 meeting. I say that to emphasize the bipartisan
8 nature of this effort, by following our good
9 Republican County Executive; and I am glad to join
10 him in making the case for the 31st District.
11 In a broad sense, I want to see the
12 east/west nature of the Southern Tier District
13 maintained. In a specific sense, I am an advocate
14 for the integrity of the 31st District.
15 I sponsored a resolution from the City
16 Council in support of this position, and in response
17 to a letter from me over forty other municipalities
18 in the 31st District passed similar resolutions.
19 Many, like the Elmira City Council, have both
20 Republican and Democratic members. From our
21 standpoint, parties and politics should play no role
22 in the redistricting issue.
23 In addition to being an elected
24 official, I am a U.S. History and Government teacher
25 at Southside High School in Elmira, now in my 30th
0027
1 year. The study of government is my vocation and
2 avocation. I love politics, and find nothing
3 unseemly about thinking politically. I believe there
4 is a good government, political reason to preserve
5 our District in its basic outline. History will
6 show, with the election and reelection of Stan
7 Lundine, our District is not a certain Republican
8 sinecure, but because of the balance of population in
9 the west in Chautauqua and Cattaraugus Counties, with
10 Steuben and Chemung Counties in the east, whoever is
11 Congressman must pay attention to the entire
12 District. A Congressman must be responsive
13 throughout the District to serve the constituents.
14 My great fear of redistricting - and your gentlemen's
15 questions, have identified, I think, the fear of many
16 of us in the District - is that if a District places
17 Elmira in a north/south District that will link us
18 with Syracuse or Rochester, where the interests and
19 priorities are much different, and the imbalance of
20 population will result in a lack of responsiveness to
21 our interests.
22 Certainly, one could argue that a good
23 Congressman will attend to the needs of the entire
24 District, but that's not reality. The current
25 configuration of our District forces the Congressman
0028
1 to be attentive throughout. I agree with those who
2 say we would never have gotten not only Route 17, but
3 also the upgrade of I-86, if we had been a distant
4 suburb of Buffalo, Rochester or Syracuse.
5 My priority is not ideology, but
6 service to the interests of the District.
7 Accessibility and responsiveness is important. The
8 small cities and rural communities of the Southern
9 Tier and Finger Lakes Region have certain things in
10 common. As a teacher, I have had both Stan Lundine
11 and Amo Houghton visit my classroom and they have
12 also visited my church. I believe that if I ever
13 wanted to run for Congress, I would stand a chance of
14 getting my party's nomination. I don't think that
15 would be the case if I was up against Syracuse or
16 Rochester. I don't think -- and I'm not announcing
17 by the way; I'm just being informative. I have no
18 desire to do that, but it reflects what I mean about
19 balance in the District.
20 I believe in the two-party system and
21 enjoy the campaign process, but I am not a fan of the
22 gerrymander. Good government should be our goal; not
23 political advantage. We need a big voice for our
24 smaller industrial centers, small colleges, small
25 cities, and our agricultural regions. We are
0029
1 concerned that our voices would be drowned out in the
2 urban hustle and bustle if this District were
3 realigned.
4 Thank you.
5 MR. SKELOS: I'm going to point out
6 that I graduated Southside High School, but on Long
7 Island.
8 MR. HARE: We get your mail from time
9 to time.
10 MR. SKELOS: Councilman, along the same
11 lines, a question I asked the County Executive: With
12 a need to add, I'd say 78,000 people to the number of
13 people currently in the 31st District to make it an
14 adequate size and population for it to be a
15 Congressional District, what direction do you think
16 the Task Force should look?
17 MR. HARE: Well, I think we should
18 expand in a continuous nature. Again, I am
19 interested in primarily that east/west configuration.
20 If you intend to break up the District into, say, two
21 districts, where you have to go north/south with
22 Buffalo or whatever, that would be a real problem for
23 me. But to pick up some continuous counties north of
24 us, or as Tom indicated earlier to the question, I
25 think, about Tioga going east, those counties all
0030
1 have a common kind of heritage with our District; and
2 to me, that did not pose a necessary problem.
3 MR. SKELOS: So, Wyoming County or
4 Livingston County, you would feel would be similar in
5 nature to the counties currently within the 31st
6 Congressional District?
7 MR. HARE: Well, I know we have two
8 prisons in Elmira. If we go up to Livingston County,
9 we pick up a prison. I mean, there are all sorts of
10 things there. I wouldn't have a problem with
11 Livingston. And, again, if you look at some of those
12 communities, they are very similar. The concern is,
13 if you have to divide the District, if you can keep
14 the District in a east/west framework, maybe it has
15 to become a little thicker going north, that may be
16 true, but east/west issues to me are truly
17 significant.
18 If you look at the history of the
19 transportation development in our area, the Thruway,
20 the Erie Canal, the New York Central Railroad through
21 the central part of New York State, all developed,
22 and a big population basis helped contribute to that
23 growth. But the Southern Tier was left out.
24 Fortunately, we began to develop a good working
25 relationship, I think, amongst the Districts, and
0031
1 having some Senators that were attentive, the
2 transportation -- east/west network transportation
3 improved. And I think if we didn't have that same
4 goal, we would be in jeopardy. And if we are linked
5 toward south, the emphasis is in the north; it's not
6 in the south. I think the history shows that.
7 FROM THE PANEL: Do you see any
8 barriers to political communication or representation
9 because of the size of the 31st District?
10 MR. HARE: I believe we're bigger than
11 Connecticut; and, obviously, as you try to improve
12 people in the rural area, it does increase the size.
13 You were mentioning other Districts similar. I think
14 there's a Congressional District in Northern New
15 York; Malone and all of those areas, that's pretty
16 large. That's a challenge, but I think that's a
17 necessity. Again, I would rather have similar
18 interests and a little more distance to travel than
19 have contrasting interests within the same District.
20 MR. SKELOS: All right. Thank you.
21 FROM THE PANEL: A couple of quick
22 questions: I think that someone before made
23 reference to the fact that Cayuga Lakes in the 31st
24 Congressional District, and portions of Seneca and
25 Cayuga are in there as well, would it make good sense
0032
1 to put Canandaigua and the Finger Lakes -- the
2 western-most Finger Lakes in this District, and make
3 it sort of a lake District, with Chautauqua on one
4 side and Seneca and --?
5 MR. HARE: I don't know whether I could
6 really comment on that. I mean, when we talk about
7 development, whether it's tourism, industrial,
8 whatever, you know, we can talk about regional, and
9 we talk about the boundaries don't necessarily mean
10 anything. We have to draw a line for both purposes.
11 I don't know that we have to draw a line for the
12 Finger Lakes.
13 FROM THE PANEL: Okay. One of the
14 things is when you look at the 80,000 people that are
15 needed for the District, if you move north, you move
16 into some of the smaller cities in Livingston and
17 Ontario County is at least because those people are
18 closer to this instead of --
19 MR. HARE: Well --.
20 FROM THE PANEL: -- moving in this
21 set -- or as Senator Parment noticed, if we extended
22 this just east, in effect as sort of the same
23 dimension and thickness, we may have to move it 40 or
24 50 miles east, with a consequence that we end up with
25 a District that's 300 miles long.
0033
1 MR. HARE: Well, I'll be very honest
2 with you. I think the idea of a place -- and I maybe
3 don't know quite how to say this. A city like
4 Auburn, where you're divided the three ways in the
5 Congressional District, or even Ithaca that has some
6 division among Congressional representation, I think
7 if you can preserve communities in their entirety, it
8 should be the goal rather than having them divided.
9 So, if you have to make it, I guess, thicker to
10 preserve entire communities under one representative,
11 I think that's the best way to go.
12 FROM THE PANEL: Okay. And I just want
13 to ask everybody, not as a government issue - I'm
14 sure we appreciate this - a State like Wyoming has
15 only one Congressional representative, and that's
16 a --
17 MR. HARE: The last --.
18 FROM THE PANEL: -- District that's
19 much, much, much bigger than this State.
20 MR. HARE: That's --.
21 FROM THE PANEL: And so, size alone
22 doesn't mean that you can't do the job as a Congress
23 person, whether it is an incumbent of someone else.
24 FROM THE PANEL: Thank you. First, an
25 observation, and that really is addressed to
0034
1 everybody.
2 I think you can see that some of us at
3 least mentally are starting the sketch the maps. And
4 as such, even though you can't see them, and you can
5 imagine those maps that we may be drawing out in our
6 heads, try to comment on those, because this is an
7 opportunity to do that.
8 However, I know that's difficult for
9 most of us. And I want you to know that I have heard
10 the Task Force has to come back here before we adopt
11 the final plan, and maybe have a map or two on the
12 wall so that you can be more specific in your
13 comments. I don't know if we are going to be able to
14 do that, but I think we should.
15 My question to you is I'm beginning to
16 understand the imparticulation of the rural
17 interests, and frankly, I come from that District up
18 in Malone and Plattsburgh, and it's very much rural.
19 It seems to me that your point has to do with the
20 cities, not necessarily the counties within which the
21 city is. So, let me just ask you a hypothetical: If
22 you had Western New York rural District, that
23 included a town or area in Erie County that weren't
24 urban, would that change the character of the
25 District --
0035
1 MR. HARE: I guess --
2 FROM THE PANEL: -- for Monroe County?
3 MR. HARE: -- I guess what concerns me
4 is if you shift in the west, or you do something in
5 the east, does that mean you lock off part of the
6 Southern Tier Counties? That, to me, would be a real
7 problem. So, if you're talking about moving in that
8 direction, and it means that you lock off a Southern
9 Tier County and put it in the north/south District,
10 that's a problem for me. So, it would depend on --
11 FROM THE PANEL: Thank you.
12 MR. HARE: -- that.
13 FROM THE PANEL: I understand that.
14 So, to restate that, you would like to see everything
15 from Pennsylvania --?
16 MR. HARE: We're armed. If those
17 Pennsylvanians come in, we want to be ready in
18 keeping those counties right along the border all
19 together.
20 FROM THE PANEL: The whole line.
21 Jamestown and --?
22 MR. HARE: That, to me, is essential.
23 Here when I talk about the integrity of the District,
24 to me, that's the integrity of the District.
25 FROM THE PANEL: So, you would rather
0036
1 go east if you had to than go north?
2 MR. HARE: Or a little thicker in the
3 middle.
4 FROM THE PANEL: A little thicker, but
5 not --?
6 MR. HARE: But I don't want to lose --.
7 FROM THE PANEL: Yeah, you don't want
8 to lose either end?
9 MR. HARE: I think the east and west of
10 this District are well-balanced, I think, population
11 wise. I think they've demonstrated that politically
12 the right candidates can be elected, whether they're
13 Republican or Democrat. The people have the interest
14 of the District at heart. That's the integrity of
15 that District, in my opinion.
16 FROM THE PANEL: Okay. Well, you've
17 generated one more question then. Now, I know what
18 the west end is, because you get, I think you said, a
19 part of Pennsylvania or the lake, and you're from
20 Chemung County here.
21 MR. HARE: Elmira.
22 FROM THE PANEL: So, at the moment,
23 you're the east end. Should that stay the east end,
24 or would it be all right to go far as Broome County?
25 MR. HARE: Well, my good friend Bill
0037
1 Thompson's here from Tioga, and I don't want to speak
2 for him, but he said that he'd like to have just one
3 Congressman. You know, one representation of an
4 entire community is an important concept.
5 FROM THE PANEL: Thank you.
6 MR. SKELOS: I just have one other
7 thing. I've got a final exam for your students.
8 Have them draw a Southern Tier District, what it
9 would look like, and maybe draw all of Western New
10 York while you're at it. It might be a great
11 experience for them. They'll learn something about
12 how Democracy works.
13 MR. HARE: Very good. Very good. All
14 of the Regents requirements should be back. If we
15 can eliminate some of that, we'll have some time to
16 do some of that, too.
17 MR. SKELOS: Next is Jeffrey Kraham of
18 Broome County.
19 MR. JEFFREY KRAHAM, BROOME COUNTY
20 EXECUTIVE: Good morning. My name is Jeff Kraham. I
21 have held the office of Broome County Executive since
22 1997. It is my privilege to be here with you this
23 morning to address this very important issue. And
24 first of all, I would like to join Mayor Lucci in
25 welcoming everyone to Broome County; the Board, of
0038
1 course; of course, all the members of the 31st
2 District. It's great to see such a show of support
3 on a very important issue.
4 I would like to begin by giving you a
5 brief personal background of myself. I'm a native of
6 Broome County, and I have lived in the Hamlet of
7 Tocans (phonetic spelling), New York, all my life.
8 I'm a graduate of Broome Community College and
9 Binghamton University. I've been involved in local
10 politics for more than twenty years. I left public
11 service in 1990, to focus more attention on my
12 business. I reentered public life in 1996, when I
13 became Broome County Executive. I am married; have
14 two children.
15 Currently, three different members of
16 Congress represent Broome County, and I feel that the
17 region suffers because of this. If you arrive at our
18 newly renovated Binghamton Regional Airport, you are
19 in one Congressional District. I live in another
20 Congressional District. And right here where we're
21 sitting, we have a third Congressional District.
22 Even some of our rural towns are split into different
23 Districts.
24 Our three Congressman, all hardworking,
25 are all based elsewhere, and it's difficult for them
0039
1 to give Broome County the attention that we feel it
2 deserves. Broome County alone has a population of
3 more than 200,000 residents. As part of the
4 Binghamton M.S.A., which includes Tioga County, that
5 number rises to nearly 260,000, making our needs
6 diverse and complex.
7 More coherent Congressional
8 representation would enable Broome and Tioga Counties
9 to form better working relationships with the
10 Appalachian Regional Commission, U.S. Department of
11 Labor, and U.S. Department of Congress, just to name
12 a few.
13 By working collaboratively with these
14 agencies, our many infrastructure, educational, and
15 work-force-development issues could be better
16 addressed. We have a solid base of high-tech
17 industry and are working to develop a technology
18 triangle in the Southern Tier, and need all the help
19 we can get to attract new companies and to enable
20 existing companies to expand.
21 We are building on many successful
22 partnerships with our neighbor to the west. We have
23 joined together in our support for completion of
24 Interstate 86. We have partnered in the collection
25 of hazardous materials. We are partners in education
0040
1 with the Broome-Tioga BOCES; and our newest endeavor,
2 the Broome-Tioga Workforce Development System, is up
3 and running.
4 This organization is run by an
5 executive director who is employed by both Broome and
6 Tioga Counties. The reason for forming Workforce
7 Development System was so that we could take a
8 collective and proactive approach to developing our
9 local work force, and be better equipped in working
10 with businesses on their job-training groups.
11 Because many of our issues are the
12 same, the need to attract people back to the region,
13 provide necessary job training for employees, and the
14 need to market the Southern Tier as a high-tech
15 corridor, working together was the only option. One
16 Congressman could facilitate that process.
17 I'd like to thank you for the
18 opportunity to speak here this morning. This issue
19 is critical to the success and future growth of
20 Broome and Tioga Counties. We will continue to work
21 as partners to preserve the high quality of life that
22 we all enjoy now.
23 Thank you very much for you time.
24 FROM THE PANEL: Mr. Executive, we have
25 some things in common here. One you touched on was
0041
1 Regional Commission. My County is in that area, and
2 I hadn't thought about this; and so, I thank you for
3 bringing it up. The three members of the Congress
4 that represent Broome County, do any of them share
5 with Broome County the distinction of being
6 Appalachian in their residence or --?
7 MR. KRAHAM: No.
8 FROM THE PANEL: No.
9 MR. KRAHAM: Not at all.
10 FROM THE PANEL: Thank you. Now, who
11 are the three members of Congress who represent
12 Broome?
13 MR. KRAHAM: Congressman Hinchey who,
14 of course, lives on the Hudson River. There's
15 Congressman Walsh, who's based in Syracuse and
16 Congressman Bowen (phonetic spelling), who is out of
17 Utica.
18 FROM THE PANEL: The Hinchey District -
19 I'll call it the Hinchey District; the
20 current-representative Hinchey District - that does
21 include some Appalachian counties; correct?
22 MR. KRAHAM: Yes, it does.
23 FROM THE PANEL: And does the
24 Congressional District represented by Mr. Bowen
25 represent Appalachian Counties?
0042
1 MR. KRAHAM: Yeah.
2 FROM THE PANEL: Okay. With the
3 Syracuse connection, with Congressman Walsh, they
4 have only Broome, basically, that's in that District
5 that's Appalachian. And would you feel that that
6 would be an important consideration for us to try
7 draw Districts that would keep the Appalachian area
8 within Congressional Districts to the extent
9 possible, and with people representing the people
10 from Appalachian region?
11 MR. KRAHAM: I think it would be an
12 advantage to Congress.
13 FROM THE PANEL: Do you sense that the
14 representatives that currently represent Broome
15 County have an appreciation for the Appalachian
16 program?
17 MR. KRAHAM: Yeah, I think they all do.
18 I think all our Congressman right now are
19 hardworking, but they are fairly removed from this
20 area. This is an important base here in Broome
21 County, and we feel we have much more in common with
22 the Southern Tier than we do on a lot of issues. You
23 know, for instances, upgrading I-86 all the way
24 across the Southern Tier, it's an important issue.
25 But for most residents of Broome County, the question
0043
1 of whether we bridge the Hudson River or not is not
2 really an issue that directly faces us.
3 FROM THE PANEL: Well, your principal
4 point to us this morning is that you would like to
5 see Broome County represented by a single District;
6 am I correct, or is that --?
7 MR. KRAHAM: That's correct.
8 FROM THE PANEL: That's correct?
9 MR. KRAHAM: Yeah, we feel that would
10 be to the best advantage of the residents of Broome
11 County. If Broome County -- we work so closely
12 together that we feel it would be in our best
13 interest to be represented by one Congressman.
14 FROM THE PANEL: And what is the
15 population of Broome County?
16 MR. KRAHAM: About 200,536.
17 FROM THE PANEL: 200,000. So it's
18 approximately a third of the new Congressional issue
19 of --
20 MR. KRAHAM: Right.
21 FROM THE PANEL: -- 615,000. Thank
22 you.
23 MR. KRAHAM: Okay.
24 MR. SKELOS: Thank you. Thank you very
25 much. Okay. That's all. Thank you very much I
0044
1 appreciate you being here.
2 Our next witness is Peter Ward, Chair,
3 Tioga County Legislature.
4 MR. PETER WARD, CHAIR, TIOGA COUNTY
5 LEGISLATURE: Thank you. It's a privilege to be
6 here, Senator Skelos; and Assemblyman Parment;
7 members of the Legislative Task Force on Demographic
8 Research and Reapportionment. I want to thank you
9 for the opportunity to testify before your Task Force
10 this morning.
11 My name is Peter Ward, and I am the
12 Chair of the Tioga County Legislature; and this is
13 John Byrne, Tioga County Manager. On behalf of the
14 Tioga County Legislature, I would like to urge the
15 New York State Senate and Assembly to ensure that
16 Broome County and Tioga County remain together in the
17 same Senatorial District.
18 Broome County and Tioga county are
19 really part of one community that share many common
20 interests. In the Southern Tier, we see the name
21 Broome hyphen Tioga so often that we sometimes see
22 ourselves as one contiguous community.
23 There are so many examples of the
24 interdependence between our two counties that they
25 would be difficult to name here today, but here are a
0045
1 few:
2 The Broome-Tioga Workforce Development
3 System has created a structure for the two counties
4 to work together on employment, business retention
5 and business recruitment issues. Governor Pataki
6 recently awarded the organization with $755,000 to
7 enable businesses to train employees in cutting-edge
8 high-technology skills. When Flextronics of Broome
9 and Sanmina of Tioga recently announced layoffs, the
10 Broome and Tioga Employment Centers in conjunction
11 with the State Department of Labor mobilized to
12 counsel and placed employees regardless of what
13 county there were dealing with.
14 Broome County Executive Jeff Kraham
15 has taken the unprecedented step of publicly
16 proposing that the counties work together as a region
17 to create 10,000 new jobs. Tioga County applauds the
18 County Executive's efforts, and we have pledged in
19 our full cooperation as Broome County's partner.
20 A new Broome-Tioga coalition to prevent
21 smoking will kick off the new anti-smoking campaign
22 this month.
23 The local chapter of the League of
24 Women Voters and the local chapter of American Red
25 Cross represents Broome and Tioga counties.
0046
1 Literacy volunteers and many other
2 programs represent Broome and Tioga Counties
3 exclusively.
4 Even some of Tioga county's residents
5 have Broome County zip codes.
6 In conclusion, Broome and Tioga
7 Counties are inseparable to the local community, and
8 the State would be doing our region a disservice if
9 it were to separate us in the Senatorial
10 redistricting process.
11 Thank you for your time. The County
12 Manager and I are available to answer any questions.
13 FROM THE PANEL: Let me just ask a
14 question about the Senatorial issues that you raise.
15 The State Senate Districts, according to the
16 population in the 51st District, Assemblyman Lewis's
17 (phonetic spelling) District - he was here earlier -
18 we have to pick up about, again, we've got find
19 somewhere around 30,000 additional people who are
20 going to meet the standard. We don't have to do
21 that, because we're not required by law, but my
22 question to you is: If we have to expand the 51st
23 Senate District, where would you go?
24 MR. WARD: I would --.
25 FROM THE PANEL: Where is the
0047
1 community's interest between Tioga and Broome; is it
2 north or east or west? You can't go south.
3 MR. WARD: No, that's Pennsylvania, but
4 I hadn't really thought about that. Chenango County
5 and Cortland County have many similar interests to
6 Tioga. Well, Delaware does, too. I guess I'm really
7 not prepared to answer that.
8 FROM THE PANEL: Just for the record,
9 you see our dilemma.
10 MR. WARD: Yes.
11 FROM THE PANEL: We have to go
12 somewhere and find some more people because of the
13 change in population, and that's why one of the
14 things that this Commission has to resolve, because
15 the Legislature will eventually vote on it, is where
16 are those community's interest; where do they lie?
17 Do they lie in the north; do they lie in the east; do
18 they lie in the west? I would just encourage you, if
19 you get any ideas; and I guess this is true for
20 everybody who speaks. And I guess that today is not
21 the final episode, because if you have anything you
22 want to add to supplement your testimony, you can
23 send to us. And if you get any idea or inspiration
24 about a map that you think, from your position and
25 title the County Legislature will agree of
0048
1 community's interest with Tioga County or Broome or
2 any other County, don't hesitate to put it down on a
3 little map and draw what looks like a Senate District
4 that would fit your interests and serve your
5 community. I'd encourage you to do that.
6 MR. WARD: I could give you a little
7 background on Tioga. It's very rural. We have no
8 cities, and our population is about 53,000. We serve
9 as a kind of a living community to the surrounding
10 counties. Many of our people work in Chemung County,
11 Broome County and enjoy the comfort of living in
12 Tioga County. We have no airports, we have no
13 hospitals. We got to all the surrounding Counties
14 for those services; out of Ithaca, out of Chemung,
15 out of Broome. And we're just starting to work
16 right. And so, we have disadvantages of no
17 universities around us; we have no colleges. But we
18 have all around us, you know, cultural advantages.
19 So, we would -- actually, probably any of the
20 counties could go with us.
21 FROM THE PANEL: Thank you.
22 FROM THE PANEL: I wondered who is the
23 largest employer in Tioga County?
24 MR. WARD: Lockheed Martin.
25 FROM THE PANEL: Lockheed Martin?
0049
1 MR. WARD: Yes, sir.
2 FROM THE PANEL: And would that be --
3 where would their main employment be?
4 MR. WARD: In Owego.
5 FROM THE PANEL: Owego. Would you
6 characterize Tioga as a County with a manufacturing
7 face to its economy or agriculture?
8 MR. WARD: It's primarily agriculture,
9 but we would like to see some growth in
10 manufacturing. I think we have some growth
11 opportunity.
12 FROM THE PANEL: All right. Thank you.
13 MR. WARD: And that's one of the things
14 that Monroe County is working with us, which I'm
15 grateful that they've been willing to help us
16 increase our employment.
17 FROM THE PANEL: Thank you. Mr.
18 Chairman, I would just like to note the arrival of
19 Assemblyman Jay Goodard, has joined us.
20 ASSEMBLYMAN JAY GOODARD: Hi, Senator
21 Skelos, how are you; Senator Dollinger?
22 FROM THE PANEL: Next is Frank Meyer.
23 MR. FRANK MEYER, PRESIDENT, LOCKHEED
24 MARTIN SYSTEMS: Okay. Well, this is a good segue at
25 this point because it was asked who's the largest
0050
1 employer in Tioga County; it's my organization,
2 Lockheed Martin. It's probably one of the premier
3 technology companies in the world.
4 FROM THE FLOOR: We can't hear you.
5 MR. MEYER: It's probably one of the
6 premier technology companies in the world; it's
7 located in Owego, New York, serving the military
8 D.O.D.; serving the Postal Service, the largest
9 automation compiler, the U.S. Postal Service, in the
10 United States.
11 It's a unique technology, software
12 systems engineering kind of organization. We've been
13 in existence for forty years. We started out as
14 I.B.M. And we migrated through several ownership
15 migrations in the turmoil of the '90s. During that
16 time period, we've been able to grow and flourish and
17 continue to grow in a very robust business. I have
18 about a quarter-of-a-billion-dollar-a-year payroll.
19 I put about a $100 million a year into the local
20 Southern Tier economy for local vendors; primarily
21 high-tech vendors.
22 More than 80 percent of my population
23 reside and work in the current District, the 26th
24 District. I have the unique ability that on the
25 Federal side, I have one Congressman to go through
0051
1 for my constituency, local issues, my Federal issues.
2 I have Tom Livitz (phonetic spelling) that goes
3 through my State issues; my buddy Jeff Kraham, who is
4 as much a partner in Broome County. So, I'm a
5 Broome-Tioga County kind of guy, with the southern
6 part of Broome County.
7 We've been here for forty years, as I
8 say. We've been able to flourish through changes in
9 ownership and growth. I'm going to add I've got 150
10 college hires coming in in the next six weeks. I've
11 added 180 experienced professionals. I've hired more
12 than 1,000 new people in the Southern Tier over the
13 last three years. And in order to have that kind of
14 job creation, it takes real partnership. It takes
15 partnership at the local level. We're involved in
16 the Coalition for Better Schools. It takes
17 partnership at the State level with people like Tom
18 Livitz, that are able to come in and work with us on
19 the State kind of issues, and work with us on the
20 Glendale Technology Park, put a couple hundred jobs
21 in there.
22 And it takes working with one
23 Congressman who has a handle on reappropriation;
24 that's very helpful to me from the standpoint of my
25 activity, because he is then able to act as an
0052
1 informed representative; he is able to understand the
2 things that are important to the Southern Tier.
3 And so, when you look at what my
4 message is to you, I think Broome and Tioga County
5 are tied together. I'm the largest traveler out of
6 Broome County Airport. I wish I didn't travel as
7 much, but I have somewhere in the neighborhood of
8 over 10,000 trips a year to come from my organization
9 through Broome County airport. It is our airport of
10 choice because of the center of population I've just
11 given. But 80 percent of my population goes from
12 Tioga County through Broome County. The center of my
13 population probably is the Broome/Tioga County line
14 for high-tech systems engineering, that kind of
15 activity.
16 We at Lockheed Martin, and our
17 predecessor companies, have benefited from this great
18 partnership. And they don't call this the Valley of
19 Opportunity for nothing. This is because of great
20 partnership at the local government level, up through
21 the State representatives in Congress to be able to
22 address our needs. And I have one State
23 representative; I've got one Federal representative.
24 And they've been very responsive, and they've taken
25 the time to learn about my business, and to be able
0053
1 to advocate for us on those high-technology issues.
2 I think we're a very close-knit
3 community. We've obviously been pleased to
4 support -- get the support of -- of both sets of the
5 Government. And so, if you ask me, I happen to
6 like -- well, I'm a home-town guy by the way. I came
7 in the back door as a new hire in 1969. I took over
8 stewardship of the organization three years ago.
9 And, you know, I lived in Vestal, and my kids were
10 educated in SUNY.
11 And so, if you ask anybody that likes
12 status quo, I like status quo. But I wanted to
13 convey to you because that there is depression. I
14 mean, Tioga County's a rural County. And, indeed, it
15 is. But it's also a high-tech center supporting
16 Department of Defense, Postal Service and commercial
17 accounts.
18 I'm probably the -- I've had great
19 success with General Motors, and people like that.
20 That's what I care about. I would just want to be
21 able to convey the great support that we get, both
22 from the Senatorial alignment that acts today, and
23 the Congressional. I'd be happy to take any
24 questions, comments. If you have any college
25 students graduating soon, give me a resume. We're
0054
1 looking for people, and we're creating jobs.
2 FROM THE PANEL: Yes. In your
3 commerce, I assume your products go from your point
4 of manufacture to customers by truck?
5 MR. MEYER: Well, think about that we
6 are persistent integrators. So, what I'm going to do
7 is I'm going to provide software, engineering design.
8 I do ship things. They will go by truck. But I'm a
9 broad-based engineering systems solution that they're
10 going to come together at the customer location. So,
11 I'm a manufacturer; I do that. But that's about, oh,
12 a third of my business. The rest of it is high-tech
13 systems engineering software kind of thing. We do
14 trucking. Southern Tier Expressway improvement is
15 very important to me.
16 FROM THE PANEL: Understood. Now, in
17 that regard, do you have any ties to Corning Glass
18 and that type of thing?
19 MR. MEYER: No.
20 FROM THE PANEL: No.
21 MR. MEYER: If you take a look at what
22 we're like, I'm pretty self-contained. And the fact
23 that, you know, as you described, I'm sort of a
24 pretty well kept secret in the Southern Tier. And
25 so, if you turn right, you're going to run into this
0055
1 1.8 million-square-foot facility out there. But my
2 ties tend to be into customer relations all over the
3 country; into government locations, postal locations,
4 those type of things. And my partnering tends to be
5 with local vendors in the Southern Tier, that provide
6 the additional software skills and those kinds of
7 things.
8 So, if you think about it like that,
9 you know, my next stop after, you know, that's
10 something we feel probably will be in Detroit to help
11 General Motors, or we'll be in some major mail
12 facility; it will be a government facility. That's
13 the tie-ins I have, and I use local vendors in the
14 work force.
15 FROM THE PANEL: How does it happen
16 that you're in that location?
17 MR. MEYER: Thirty-second history
18 lesson. Chosen by Tom Watson (phonetic spelling),
19 I.B.M., to support the B-52 program in 1952; built in
20 1958 to serve the national interest, at the request
21 of, you know, at that time, the president.
22 And it happened to be along the way
23 from a major I.B.M. location in Endicott to Watson's
24 home over in Elmira, Corning. And that's how things,
25 you know, get done. So, it was almost an accident we
0056
1 were chosen to be there. We've been there for 40
2 year, as I said, 1.8 million square feet, 800 acres.
3 FROM THE PANEL: And how many
4 employees?
5 MR. MEYER: About 3,800; and about 80
6 percent of them are in the current District at the
7 time.
8 FROM THE PANEL: Okay. Thank you.
9 MR. MEYER: Anything else?
10 FROM THE PANEL: A question: Will you
11 have any nexus to the Corning, and I think you
12 communicated no?
13 MR. MEYER: No.
14 FROM THE PANEL: Do you have any nexus
15 to hospitals in other counties?
16 MR. MEYER: No.
17 FROM THE PANEL: One of the things, Mr.
18 Meyer, you see our dilemma here as we have to find
19 65,000 people to put into 26th Congressional District
20 or what will be we figure about 80,000 people to put
21 into the Southern Tier District. But my question is:
22 One of the things that we had talked about was the
23 notion of whether we should have sort of a concentric
24 circle Congressional approach, where we look to the
25 hub that's here today; that Tioga and Broome are a
0057
1 hub, and we should draw lines out and create sort of
2 spherical-shape Districts. If you look at the two
3 Districts that we're talking about today, they're
4 both longitudinal; I mean, they extend a great deal
5 of a distance. What I hear you saying is that Broome
6 and Tioga as the center would probably be best served
7 if it had concentric circle lines; is that correct?
8 MR. MEYER: The way we work today with
9 running from up by Ithaca and down the Hudson River,
10 it has served us well because the major population of
11 that's all in Broome and Tioga. So, I'm very
12 comfortable with the District today, and I wouldn't
13 presume to comment on your job of trying to draw into
14 other Districts. I mean, all I'm here for today is
15 to tell you that the current activity, both
16 Senatorial and State-side, works very well for us;
17 it's a great partnership that we're doing. And so,
18 80 percent of our constitutes are in there. So, I
19 don't have an outlying bunch of constituents. Nor do
20 I have an outlying group of suppliers or business
21 partners. So, I am sort of self-contained, you know.
22 I mean, I probably didn't help you there on that, but
23 I almost don't have an opinion, because I can just
24 comment on what works today.
25 FROM THE PANEL: Thank you.
0058
1 MR. MEYER: Thank you, everyone.
2 MR. SKELOS: Henrik Dullea.
3 MR. HENRIK N. DULLEA, VICE PRESIDENT,
4 UNIVERSITY RELATIONS, CORNELL UNIVERSITY: Thanks
5 very much, Mr. Chairman. Good to have all of you
6 here in the Southern Tier. I've worked with you many
7 years in the past in Albany.
8 My name is Henrik Dullea. I'm the Vice
9 President for University Relations at Cornell
10 University. Much like the previous speaker from
11 Lockheed Martin, I'm here to tell you that the
12 current arrangement that we have with our
13 Congressional representation in Tompkins County, at
14 least those of us in the University, has also worked
15 very well. And that's going to be very different
16 from what some people have said where there's a need
17 to have a total community. We have two members of
18 Congress who represent Tompkins County; Congressman
19 Maurice Hinchey of the 26th, and Congressman Amo
20 Houghton of the 31st.
21 Both members of Congress provide
22 extraordinarily excellent service on behalf of the
23 University, as we see it. Cornell University is the
24 largest employer in the 26th Congressional District
25 represented by Mr. Hinchey. We have over 9,000
0059
1 employees. We have an annual budget of approximately
2 $1.7 billion. We have a very significant dependency
3 on Federal funding.
4 Federal funding has been much described
5 by members of the State Legislature as significant,
6 the money we receive from the State of New York,
7 being that we are New York State's primary
8 university. We look to support from the Congress in
9 many different areas, but primarily two areas; and
10 that is high-tech and agriculture.
11 Currently, the Congressional
12 representation, is very beneficial for us. Let me
13 speak for a moment about that. You have my prepared
14 text. You'll have an opportunity to go through that.
15 It talks essentially about the good services from Mr.
16 Hinchey, in particular. Let me talk just about that
17 for one moment, given the nature of the District. It
18 comes from the relationship in the high-tech area as
19 it effects part of Broome County.
20 Right now, we do have the city of
21 Ithaca and the town of Ithaca, those two portions of
22 Tompkins County, are represented by Mr. Hinchey with
23 the area to the south. We have one of our two very
24 major corporate partners at Cornell, the I.B.M.
25 Corporation. The I.B.M. Corporation's heavily
0060
1 located here in the Binghamton area, but it also
2 stretches over in the Hudson Valley. We do a great
3 deal of work between Cornell and I.B.M. It is a
4 major partnership with I.B.M., and you're familiar
5 with that on the State level. It has worked very,
6 very well for us. Mr. Hinchey is a very strong
7 supporter of Federal funding in support of that
8 program. I think that's important that you be aware
9 of that.
10 Similarly, we have a major interest in
11 agriculture. We are the principal source of
12 agricultural research throughout the State of New
13 York. The 31st Congressional District is primarily a
14 rural Congressional District. We have a lot of
15 strong ties there. On the agricultural side, I'll
16 also say that we do have strong partnerships with
17 Corning, Incorporated. They are our second major
18 high-tech partner.
19 I guess I'd like to close my opening
20 remarks by saying that right now, this works very
21 well for Cornell University; and many, many people
22 who are on the university fully support it. I think
23 that Tompkins County consistently has the lowest
24 unemployment rate in New York State; most recently, I
25 think it's two point six percent. That is because of
0061
1 the tremendous Federal dollars coming to the
2 university. We have $273 million coming from the
3 Federal government this year to Cornell, and we hope
4 to continue that every year.
5 Having two members of Congress actually
6 helps us in that regard. There was a time in the
7 1980s when we had three. Congressman Boehlert's
8 District also then came into Tompkins County. If you
9 were to think for a moment about having a senior
10 member of the Ways and Means Committee, a senior
11 member of the Agricultural Appropriations Committee,
12 and the Chairman of the Health Science Committee, all
13 representing Tompkins County, I will tell you that
14 Cornell will be absolutely delighted with that kind
15 of an arrangement.
16 So, that's significant in the
17 community's interest in each direction. I hope that
18 as you think about the boundaries that you have to
19 draw in order to accommodate the population changes,
20 you will not automatically look to put us into one or
21 the other. Mr. Hinchey's District serves us very
22 well, and having Congressman Houghton representing
23 the rural area of Tompkins County, I think, also
24 serves us very well.
25 So, I thank you much for your
0062
1 attention. I'll be pleased to answer any questions
2 that you have.
3 FROM THE PANEL: Just that one of the
4 questions that was posed to us yesterday was on
5 Cornell University's research opportunities, and
6 Federal dollars for the Ithaca area redistricted with
7 the Syracuse area, and one of the expressions was
8 that there was a fear that this might cause
9 competition between the universities. Would you
10 think that that would be a problem if Syracuse
11 University and Cornell University were in the same
12 Congressional District?
13 MR. DULLEA: We're in a competitive
14 world in the university environment. We compete
15 every day for Federal dollars in terms of grants.
16 The truth is it's really not on an institutional
17 basis, primarily. So, at each institution, there are
18 wonderful faculty, who themselves are the ones who
19 have to justify the applications. So, I find that
20 you are increasingly in higher education putting
21 together partnerships. And we do that in many
22 different directions.
23 We were delighted that Governor Pataki
24 yesterday announced that we would be one of the Star
25 Centers for Excellence. We have a significant
0063
1 partnership there with both I.B.M. and Corning. The
2 reach of institutions is quite considerable. I'd
3 just go back to what I said earlier; that the current
4 configuration with both high-tech and agricultural
5 representatives strongly in Tompkins County, I think,
6 is working very well for us.
7 FROM THE PANEL: Is the Geneva
8 Experiment Station currently in the 31st
9 Congressional District?
10 MR. DULLEA: I believe that's
11 represented by Congressman Marlos (phonetic
12 spelling).
13 FROM THE PANEL: By Congressman Marlos.
14 Okay.
15 FROM THE PANEL: So, you in effect have
16 three?
17 MR. DULLEA: Well, if you think of our
18 many facilities that we have around the State, with
19 certainly our extension programs in Western New York,
20 our North Country Agriculture Program, the duck farm
21 on Long Island, you know, we reach out to a lot of
22 folks.
23 FROM THE PANEL: Was this purposeful or
24 was this an accident?
25 MR. DULLEA: I think it was the
0064
1 intelligence of the New York State Legislature and
2 Government.
3 FROM THE PANEL: Perhaps what you're
4 really saying is we should gerrymander the whole
5 State to include all of us in the Cornell District.
6 MR. DULLEA: We'd be willing to think
7 about that.
8 FROM THE PANEL: I'm having a little
9 amount of difficulty here understanding the
10 thematical identification the District would be
11 accounting, and we all hope that our positions
12 identify the lines. But our job is very different.
13 To me, the analogy - and I've done redistricting at
14 the local level - even though I was evenly involved
15 with the politics, I tried to approach it in the more
16 abstract and the more academic way. And the same way
17 with surveyors surveying the land without regard to
18 who is going to own it today or in a hundred years, I
19 think we really are obliged by the Constitution and
20 by two centuries of conditioning to try to draw the
21 Districts without regard to Maurice Hinchey or Amo
22 Houghton or Tom Reynolds (phonetic spelling) or any
23 of us, because it's the Districts, as I said earlier,
24 that are going to survive.
25 Later today, we're going hear from
0065
1 people, whereas yesterday we heard from Department of
2 Common Laws, and they along with NYPEG are
3 recommending - not that we're going to do that - but
4 as an alternative idea, doing redistricting without
5 any consideration, even where the incumbents live.
6 Could you comment on their approach, vis-a-vis the
7 approach that we aren't too familiar with here today,
8 which is that?
9 MR. DULLEA: Oh, I think that's
10 practical. And by practical, I mean, I think you
11 look for a general issue of commonality. I tried to
12 address that in my remarks in terms of the
13 agricultural relevance in similar areas, and to some
14 degree the way you see the high-tech emphasis in
15 another area.
16 But I think also from the State
17 Legislature's perspective, you need to think of where
18 things are lacking, though, in the Congress over the
19 next ten years. I think that's not an unreasonable
20 thing for members of the State Legislature to have in
21 mind as they look to the future and what's in the
22 best interest of the State as a whole.
23 There is an integrity in the 31st
24 District in terms of agricultural issues. That's
25 very important to New York State. It's important to
0066
1 have a champion for those issues in the Congress, no
2 matter who the person is, and will have the ability
3 to champion those issues, be it helped or hindered by
4 the lines that you draw in the Legislature. You have
5 to think about that.
6 Similarly, I think you have to think
7 about where is our strength in the Congressional
8 delegation today, where is it conceivably going to be
9 over the years, and do you have particular
10 opportunities to see that New York be the more -- as
11 competitive as we can be with other states that are
12 gaining in population in the House of Representatives
13 at a time when we are losing. And if it is simply a
14 perfect-world model drawn by some civic organization
15 that doesn't take into account political realities
16 and potential policy indications of changes, I don't
17 think New York State is going to be as benefited as
18 it would otherwise be.
19 FROM THE PANEL: So, in other words,
20 incumbent consideration really are analogous?
21 MR. DULLEA: I think they are. I don't
22 think it's inappropriate to think about that. That's
23 why, in my prepared remarks, I really emphasized the
24 extraordinary service of our representatives.
25 Thank you.
0067
1 FROM THE PANEL: Thank you. As I
2 understand your testimony, I encapsulated it as
3 follows: If we had to put an intersection of several
4 Districts in Central New York, your position is that
5 that intersection being close to Ithaca is not a bad
6 idea, because it would give the college, the
7 university access to as many potential members of
8 Congress that are potentially bipartisan as it has
9 been in the past. So, that's just contrary to other
10 views that we've heard, which is: Please put us in
11 one District, one Congressional District, with one
12 Senator. Do you think it's your opinion that you're
13 best served by as many intersections as close to
14 Ithaca as possible?
15 MR. DULLEA: Yes. In a word, I think
16 it's best if we work on a bipartisan basis with
17 members on both sides, the existing interests within
18 Tompkins County, the city of Ithaca and the town of
19 Ithaca, because I think the rural areas to the north
20 of the County stretching up to Cayuga County are in
21 some respects different, and that's okay.
22 FROM THE PANEL: I know that you're in
23 the academic area, and you mentioned in terms of
24 Congress being a force of some sort of continuity,
25 seniority, practical, doing what's best for the
0068
1 State, does the fact that a change administration be
2 more interested in who is majority/minority in terms
3 of access in funding and seniority of those majority
4 ones?
5 MR. DULLEA: Yes.
6 FROM THE PANEL: Thank you.
7 The next is Jack Cheevers, Supervisor,
8 Town of Union. Are you here?
9 Next, we have David Dawson. Is David
10 here?
11 MR. DAVID DAWSON, DAWSON METAL COMPANY,
12 INCORPORATED: Right here.
13 Gentlemen, thank you. My name is David
14 Dawson. I'm a manufacturer from the western end of
15 31st Congressional District over in Jamestown. I,
16 too, don't envy the job that you guys have got in
17 front of you.
18 Unfortunately, when we lose
19 competitiveness, we lose the people in the State; we
20 lose Congressmen. And I'm not here advocating which
21 Congressman should be retained, which Congressman
22 should not be retained. I think the issue for us in
23 the 31st -- and I think you used the word "rural" as
24 the nature of the 31st, or somebody did, but
25 longitudinal was also used as a description of what
0069
1 the 31st looked like. And I think that those are
2 fair characterizations, having just driven across the
3 Southern Tier Expressway. You get the real flavor of
4 how rural we are in the 31st Congressional District.
5 At the same time, we've got thousands
6 of manufacturing companies in the District. And
7 those thousands of manufacturing companies are in
8 need of strong representation as the rural nature of
9 the District and the farming aspects of the Districts
10 are as well.
11 So, there's a real economic viability
12 issue for both of us in manufacturing when we talk
13 about what's going to happen in this redistricting.
14 Again, without referring to a particular Congressman,
15 I'm just fearful of the fact that we would end up in
16 the western end of the District, considered to be
17 part of an urban or suburban addition to a
18 Congressional map when, in fact, the Southern Tier
19 has a significant sense of self, much more so than
20 Jamestown would have with Buffalo, or with Hamburg,
21 or West Seneca, or somewhere into an urban or
22 suburban aspect of western New York.
23 The Southern Tier, whether it's rural
24 or semi-urban, with Jamestown and Corning and Dunkirk
25 and a number of the other smaller cities of the
0070
1 Southern Tier, we have a real concern that those of
2 us that are in manufacturing would lose our ability
3 to have an effective voice with whomever is
4 representing us in Washington, if we could get thrown
5 in with an urban or suburban mix of representation,
6 where we become far out at the end of the table.
7 And so, as I try and voice the
8 expression of those of us who are in manufacturing in
9 the Southern Tier, I think the character of the
10 District now works for us. A different character
11 would be problematic for us. We don't feel that it
12 would be strengthening us in our attempt at
13 continuing to do business.
14 And I think that that's another point
15 that I would just like to make in that this used to
16 be the area certainly known as the Appalachian area
17 of New York State. We were the 13 counties that were
18 included, or we were part of the 13 counties included
19 in the Appalachian Regional Program. And there was a
20 reason for that. And this area has stayed in a
21 struggle significantly, and our abilities to continue
22 to prosper partly is going to be the result of having
23 somebody that we can appeal -- that's going to be a
24 strong representation for that the character of the
25 District that currently exists.
0071
1 It doesn't matter to me who that person
2 is. I'm we're not here advocating Amo, although I
3 think Amo has done a magnificent job. That's not my
4 position. My position is that the character of the
5 District works for the Southern Tier much better
6 between Jamestown and Corning than it would be
7 between Jamestown and Lackawanna.
8 FROM THE PANEL: In your former
9 position as Director of Economic Development for
10 Chautauqua County - I'm not sure of the title of it -
11 nevertheless, what you did as Director of Economic
12 Development for Chautauqua County, when you attempted
13 to form coalitions to Albany or Washington, could you
14 describe those coalitions? Did those coalitions ever
15 include communities such as Buffalo or Rochester?
16 MR. DAWSON: Well, occasionally, but we
17 are always viewed as the step-child or something
18 worse when we were thrown in with Erie County or
19 Monroe County. And I think that is -- I'm not
20 certainly denigrating their viewpoints. I'm just
21 saying it's a fact of political life that when you're
22 the small kid on the block, you just don't carry too
23 much weight.
24 And the coalitions that you principally
25 formed, whether it was working with yourself and
0072
1 others and Amo to complete the Southern Tier
2 Expressway in the Western District, it was this
3 longitudinal approach of forming coalitions that
4 happened nine out of ten times as opposed to the
5 vertical approach. You know, our viewpoint on the
6 vertical approach in Western New York is the
7 building's safer, and that's about as far as it gets.
8 FROM THE PANEL: And when you were
9 lobbying for transportation activities such as the
10 Southern Tier Expressway, did you attach a higher
11 priority to the Corning Bypass than to Route 219?
12 MR. DAWSON: Yes.
13 FROM THE PANEL: Thank you.
14 FROM THE PANEL: Thank you. Howard
15 Howlett.
16 MR. HOWARD HOWLETT, LOCAL HEALTH CARE
17 REPRESENTATIVE: Good morning. I'm from Jamestown,
18 New York by the way of Detroit Michigan and Buffalo,
19 New York. I worked for General Motors of Buffalo as
20 a new car merchant manager for Chevrolet, covering
21 basically the Southern Tier, Buffalo and Rochester.
22 I've got to tell you, gentlemen,
23 there's a big difference between Buffalo, Rochester,
24 and the Southern Tier. Jamestown, Corning, Elmira,
25 Binghamton, we're all the same. It's character of
0073
1 our areas that makes us totally different from
2 Buffalo, Rochester, and Syracuse.
3 Since being out of the automobile
4 business, I'm in health care. I'm a trustee of
5 W.C.A. Hospital in Jamestown. I'm on the Board of
6 the Health Care Trustees of the State of New York,
7 and I'm on the Committee of the Governor's American
8 Hospital Association. I spend a great deal of time
9 in Albany and in Washington.
10 Look at health care. What's going on
11 in Southern Tier, down Interstate 86, all the
12 hospitals were the same. When 50 to 70 percent of
13 our revenue comes from the government, be it Medicaid
14 or Medicare, we need to have representation that
15 understands, eats, sleeps, and lives the character of
16 the Southern Tier.
17 I'll give you some examples. I'm also
18 chairman of a Medivac ambulance service. We fly
19 helicopters. We had a problem with a bill. We went
20 to our representative in Washington who got a bill
21 through, that understand what a flight car was. I'm
22 not picking on Long Island, but most people in Long
23 Island don't understand what a flight car is. The
24 ambulance service, they don't understand the distance
25 that we travel.
0074
1 Now, if I looked into Rochester,
2 Genesee is going out of business and closing its
3 doors, a large hospital in Rochester. Go to
4 Syracuse, Crouse-Irving's filed bankruptcy. What
5 would happen down here if one of our hospitals
6 closed? Your representatives, your constituents
7 would have to travel a hundred miles to go to a
8 hospital. That's not the way it should be.
9 With proper representation in Albany
10 and Washington, we can tell our story on health care.
11 If we have to sell our story on the character and how
12 rural this District is, you'll waste half your time.
13 Believe me, New York City, Manhattan, they do not
14 understand what the hospitals go through in this
15 District. And I can tell you from traveling on
16 health care across the country, there aren't many
17 districts that have Phil Thomas (phonetic spelling),
18 who was in charge of the Health Care Committee of
19 Ways And means is now Chairman of Ways and Means, not
20 many people got him to come to their District, to
21 travel and understand what we're all about.
22 It's our character. I can walk down
23 the street in Jamestown, and I can say hello to the
24 person next to me, and they'll say it back. If I do
25 that in Detroit, you're going to call 911. That's
0075
1 the difference in the rural area. You go into any of
2 our hospitals here, and you don't see armed guards
3 standing at the doors. Yet, we still have the same
4 problems down here in recruiting teachers.
5 I can tell you in Jamestown, we just
6 recruited a gentlemen from Duke University who moved
7 to Jamestown and loves it. It's the character that
8 they like. Another one just came in from Toledo,
9 Ohio. She thinks she's died and gone to heaven, even
10 in the wintertime; didn't mind the snow.
11 So, it's the character that makes up
12 the District. You can talk all about the numbers.
13 I'm not a politician. I'm not a Constitutional
14 person. I don't remember hearing about you had to
15 have X numbers, because I go to Montana and I don't
16 see that many numbers in a District. Senator Conrad
17 doesn't have as many people. So, I don't understand
18 the number of people. It's keeping a District's
19 character together that's more important than your
20 numbers.
21 MR. SKELOS: Let me just explain the
22 numbers to you.
23 Under the Supreme Court decision, each
24 District other than states that do not have enough
25 for two complete Districts, every Congressional
0076
1 District in New York State has to be, by population,
2 exactly the same. To show you how much we have to
3 define it, again, I was a Co-Chair ten years ago when
4 we did the redistricting. If there's a deviation of
5 one person, one in this Congressional District, not
6 100, not 1,000, in the State Legislature it's
7 permissible to have deviations in the Senate, but
8 because of the experience of law, court decisions
9 from Washington, when it comes to Congressional
10 Districts, they have to be exactly the same.
11 Now, it doesn't mean you don't take
12 into account the nature we're talking about of
13 opposing districts, but I just have to point out the
14 number-one thing that drives us in Congressional
15 redistricting is the one-person/one-vote.
16 MR. HOWLETT: Again, sir, I totally
17 agree with that in theory, but I'm not --.
18 FROM THE PANEL: Well, you can argue
19 with the Supreme Court, but that's what they told us.
20 MR. HOWLETT: If you'll look at the
21 character of the districts, that's more important.
22 When you're talking about recruiting people in for
23 manufacturing, be it Corning Glass Works, this other
24 gentlemen, we recruit doctors all the time. How do
25 we get them here? It's not because we have the only
0077
1 hospital in the world. They like the character of
2 the territory. That's why they move here, that's why
3 they stay here.
4 And I think it's vital that when you do
5 the redistricting, you try to keep the character of
6 the districts the same. Whether you add 50 miles
7 this way, that's one thing. We are not the same as
8 Rochester, we're not the same as Syracuse, and we're
9 certainly not the same as Buffalo. And I think
10 that's something that really has to be looked at.
11 Thank you.
12 FROM THE PANEL: In this hospital area,
13 we have established distinctions between rural and
14 urban. And I don't always understand quite where my
15 hospitals fall in that, but I know because of your
16 experience in this field, that you are very aware of
17 these distinctions. Is it the case that all of the
18 hospitals in the current 31st Congressional District
19 would be characterized, for Federal purposes, as
20 rural?
21 MR. HOWLETT: Correct.
22 FROM THE PANEL: That's correct.
23 MR. HOWLETT: Right. It falls under
24 the M.S.A., Municipal Statistic Average program. If
25 you're in that, you're not rural. Under the Federal
0078
1 Rules, if you are rural by State definition, which
2 thank you gentlemen, you all did last year, if you're
3 rural by State definition, you can fall under the
4 rural under the Medicaid.
5 If you're urban, which is basically the
6 suburban areas, then you can't fall under a rural.
7 The differential is in the reimbursement system,
8 whereas the rurals get less then the urban people;
9 especially, the wage index area of the reimbursement
10 system. I mean, like Jamestown relates at the rate
11 of Texas when it comes to how low are rates are,
12 versus what they are in Buffalo.
13 The question I have: Is it going to
14 stay the same when you're talking about a change in
15 administration?
16 Senator Tommy Thompson from Wisconsin
17 is head of the Health Care Plan System, redoing the
18 Medicare plan. And they're saying, "I'm going to put
19 in more money to the rural health care systems," such
20 as ours that we currently are. If we become part of
21 Syracuse, Rochester or Buffalo, we will not be rural.
22 And I know somebody used the word
23 "stepchild" or something. That's what we will
24 become. And I'm going to tell you right now that the
25 rural hospitals in the State of New York cannot
0079
1 afford to take another hit like we did under the
2 Balanced Budget Act and survive. And rural people in
3 rural New York when they go for health care, if we're
4 cut out of the rural dollars, those dollars go for
5 medical education to New York City.
6 FROM THE PANEL: And so, your opinion
7 would be that if we were adding to the current 31st
8 District, it would be preferable that that hospital
9 be a rural hospital, so that it would be --
10 MR. HOWLETT: So, that there's no
11 questions --.
12 FROM THE PANEL: -- similar to the
13 existing grouping of hospitals?
14 MR. HOWLETT: Yeah, so that there's no
15 question that we're not a rural hospital when you're
16 coming up with more rural dollars for health care. I
17 mean, that's vital for the health care people in this
18 part of the State. We have rural health care
19 networks. Genesee has a competitor called Strong.
20 We don't have competitors. We work together to
21 improve the health of our community. We work
22 together for better quality of health care. If we
23 can recruit a doctor to Jamestown we don't
24 necessarily need, through the Chautauqua Health
25 Network we automatically get a hold of the other
0080
1 three hospitals to see if they need it.
2 So, we all work together. We're not
3 competitors like you are in the metro area.
4 FROM THE PANEL: Thank you. The next
5 appearing is AARP representative Fran Weeks. Are you
6 here?
7 All right. Thomas Rutan,
8 Vice-President at Elmira College.
9 MR. THOMAS RUTAN, VICE-PRESIDENT,
10 ELMIRA COLLEGE: One of the disadvantages of being
11 eighth, ninth, or tenth on the list is THAT you're
12 bound to hear repetition. I do subscribe to the
13 theory of if it's worth doing, it's worth overdoing.
14 So, I will do my work at overdoing.
15 While I am personally and emotionally
16 charged concerning the retention of the 31st
17 Congressional District, I would like to offer
18 concrete rational reasons for retention of the
19 District.
20 Firstly, the 31st Congressional
21 District maintains a balance of representation of a
22 large geographic area with no overwhelming
23 concentration of population, no large metro areas;
24 it's rural to semi-urban. And all in all, in terms
25 of industry, agriculture and size, the District is
0081
1 very unique and special in terms of opportunities and
2 problems.
3 Number two, the opinion is bipartisan,
4 but I have found and read and seen and supported
5 retaining the District. Should the District be
6 broken up, meaning in thirds or what have you, and
7 then patched to the bigger city, there's a little
8 possibility, or very little possibility, very remote,
9 that any representative of any one of those Southern
10 Tier areas that were broken into, that representative
11 would ever be elected other than the big city.
12 The District to me is much more than a
13 community, and it's been mentioned many times. My
14 primary occupation is I'm Vice-President of Elmira
15 College. I'm also on a few boards of companies, and
16 I am a consultant to the small businesses. And the
17 only reason I bring that up is that that is integral
18 to this area, and I have worked with a lot of small
19 companies.
20 In any event, there are only eleven
21 colleges. None of them are large. There is only one
22 very large corporation, and that's Corning, of
23 course. But there is a multitude of small companies.
24 There is a wealth of hospitals, treatment centers and
25 not-for-profits, and none are large. There is high
0082
1 agricultural activity, but no big, huge, monstrous
2 corporate farms. There are many museums, cultural
3 attractions, tourism, with none focused
4 geographically in a high-population-density area. To
5 me, the 31st District at present reflects what is
6 right and just with equal representation.
7 Should the people of the 31st District
8 be split and placed within a District of a very high
9 population center, the plethora of smaller
10 institutions, companies and political subdivisions,
11 would be second fiddle to the big city of the new
12 District.
13 As presently constructed, with the
14 addition of 78,000 people to bring the District up to
15 a minimum, the 31st District would retain its
16 uniqueness and retain, with equal representation,
17 without that overshadowing of a massive population
18 center. Worst of all, I am deeply concerned that
19 this area would be completely lost in the shuffle,
20 which would be a terrible loss.
21 Basically, I appeal to you, and I
22 understand it's a very difficult task. I appeal to
23 your sense of fair and just representation in
24 government, and urge you to preserve the 31st
25 Congressional District.
0083
1 That concludes my remarks; however, I
2 do realize that you will probably ask me a question:
3 What would I do to increase the size and pick up the
4 additional population? And my first reaction would
5 be to take a band and go across the top of the
6 District. And if that weren't sufficient, I would
7 take something on the smaller end of the east
8 preserving that east/west.
9 And I appreciate the opportunity for
10 having the opportunity to express some brief comments
11 to you.
12 FROM THE PANEL: Yes, you mentioned
13 that there were many colleges in the current 31st
14 District. Are there communities north or east of the
15 current District that would have colleges similar to
16 Elmira College that would be a logical fit for small
17 community colleges?
18 MR. RUTAN: Not really to the east.
19 Certainly, in Broome County, which I would not
20 suggest, there is the State University. To the
21 north, there would probably be two or three, but I'm
22 not quite sure geographically where they slot in.
23 FROM THE PANEL: The junior college is
24 currently in the District?
25 MR. RUTAN: Yes, sir.
0084
1 FROM THE PANEL: Probably similar in
2 size to Elmira?
3 MR. RUTAN: Yes, it is.
4 FROM THE PANEL: Probably the largest
5 college in the 31st would be Bonaventure?
6 MR. RUTAN: Yes, it would. There are
7 approximately 2,600. And, again, with the one
8 exception of Corning, I think industry, whether
9 education, whether it's industry or tourism, there is
10 no overriding single dominating type industry or what
11 have you.
12 FROM THE PANEL: Do you have an
13 association of colleges in the region that would be
14 represented by going to Washington or Albany?
15 MR. RUTAN: Not in the region. There
16 is the Independent College of New York, which Elmira,
17 Cornell, and both ones that we have mentioned belong
18 to, all the independent ones. And there is
19 legislative action from them within the State of New
20 York; not too much in Washington. There is a
21 national C.I.C.U., College of Independent Colleges
22 and Universities, who help lobby for different types
23 of legislation, less paperwork, et cetera, et cetera.
24 FROM THE PANEL: Would you see a
25 disadvantage to a District that had included within
0085
1 it a large university?
2 MR. RUTAN: Well, let me give you an
3 analogy. I'm not sure I know the answer to that
4 question. Elmira College was established in 1855,
5 almost 150 years ago. And up until three years ago,
6 we have never received one Federal grant.
7 Unfortunately, we were able to effect one two or
8 three years ago.
9 Cornell, for example, has over two
10 hundred in a year. Now, whether or not that one or
11 two per year might change, I doubt it. I suppose the
12 best way I can put this is that if someone gave a
13 donation of $1 million to Harvard University, or
14 Princeton, or Stanford, what have you, that would be
15 a very magnanimous gift. However, it wouldn't change
16 the numbers very much, because their endowments are
17 in the billions, or hundreds of billions. If someone
18 gave the colleges in the 31st District $1 million,
19 they'd make a significant impact on that institution.
20 Now, what has that got to do with the
21 District? It's comparable that if the Federal
22 government were to give the system - and I'm not
23 looking for giveaways - assistance, the smaller ones,
24 it has a huge impact. A $100-million grant to
25 certain institutions, even though it's a huge number,
0086
1 it's not that big. If somebody gave me a $100
2 million, I would have to call 911 because I couldn't
3 handle it.
4 FROM THE PANEL: Thank you. Mr. Rutan,
5 I don't mean to put you on the spot, but we've heard
6 a chunk of the testimony today, so I'm going to sort
7 of use you as cumulative. If you look at the
8 Congressional redistricting that was done by Senator
9 Skelos in this commission ten years ago, what in
10 essence happened is - and there's a number of ways to
11 interpret this, but I'll tell you how I interpret it
12 - they, in essence, drew a circle around Rochester
13 and Monroe County. They took most of Erie County and
14 the city of Buffalo, created Congressional Districts
15 there, and then drew longitudinal Districts that
16 reflect the more rural character of the Southern
17 Tier, the central Finger Lakes, and then the southern
18 shore of Lake Ontario.
19 Is it your testimony today that if you
20 had to do it that way, given that we have to create
21 fewer Districts, and given the fact that the number
22 we take from some we've got to take back, everything
23 is independent, is it your testimony today that I
24 think maybe the people in this room don't do that
25 again; take the big cities, put Congressional
0087
1 Districts to the cities and suburbs, and allow the
2 rural character of Western New York to be reflected
3 in one, two, three, however many Districts; is that
4 the right way to do it?
5 MR. RUTAN: I would say yes.
6 Personally, and the testimony that I've heard, some
7 people would say annex Tioga County; some say leave
8 Tioga with Broome County. And all of those are
9 probably valid. But I think the overwhelming thing
10 is -- in fact, the gentlemen that just precede me,
11 the two of them were talking about the culture, the
12 uniqueness of an area, and I think that's very, very,
13 very important to maintain.
14 FROM THE PANEL: Even at the rural
15 District?
16 MR. RUTAN: It's a common denominator
17 that counts.
18 FROM THE PANEL: Thank you very much.
19 MR. RUTAN: Thank you.
20 MR. TOMMY ROGUE, YOUTH WORKER: I'm
21 Tommy Rogue, from Chautauqua County. I'm the
22 Director and Founder of the 2XL Program (phonetic
23 spelling).
24 This is all new to me. I grew up up
25 here. And when I grew up up here, when I first came
0088
1 to Dunkirk, New York, it was perilous, I mean, a
2 rural area. I came from a big city. I came from New
3 York City. Compared to New York City to where I'm at
4 now, you can't compare the two. There's no
5 comparison to it.
6 I understand the numbers that I just
7 heard you talk about, but this is a unique part of
8 this State. Most of the kids that I deal with as
9 well, we started gradually in the program. The
10 reason why I started with these kids was these kids
11 would have the potential to do great things, but
12 they're not given the opportunity.
13 Chautauqua County is a rural community
14 with unique circumstances. My fear is that my
15 program will suffer financially if our community is
16 not represented by its own separate Congressman.
17 Although our communities face similar
18 problems like big cities, we also have unique
19 problems, problems unique to rural communities. Our
20 communities will not add the number of people and
21 youth with problems like teen pregnancy, dropouts
22 drug use/abuse, but these problems will exist in our
23 rural communities.
24 I fear the money will be spent on the
25 numbers of larger cities and those who will lose out
0089
1 will be the youth in the small communities. Excuse
2 me. We need to help our 31st District stay alive for
3 the sake of all its residents, including children who
4 do not have a voice in government. Let us be that
5 voice, speak for the children, who depend on these
6 programs.
7 You know, and basically this is unique.
8 A rural area is very unique. You don't have the
9 inner city -- I mean, a group at Dunkirk, Chautauqua
10 County, going to Buffalo, we're going to get lost.
11 We're really going to get lost, because all we're
12 going to do is be a ripple effect to a bigger city.
13 You know, and we do have the problems similar to
14 Buffalo. But if you looked at it statistically, I
15 mean, we have basically almost high numbers because
16 of rural areas. You know we need to be represented
17 by a Congressman.
18 FROM THE PANEL: Thank you very much.
19 Next is Thomas Tranter.
20 MR. G. THOMAS TRANTER, JR., DIRECTOR,
21 GOVERNMENT RELATIONS: Thank you very much Senator
22 Skelos; Assemblyman Parment; and members of the
23 Redistricting Task Force.
24 My name is Tom Tranter. I'm the
25 Director of State and Local Government Relations for
0090
1 Corning, Incorporated. I've held that position about
2 a year, and prior to that I was the Chemung County
3 Executive for ten years and a deputy for a period
4 before that.
5 I'm here today though to really talk
6 about Corning, Incorporated. I think you know we're
7 a Fortune 300 company; we do $7.1 billion in sales.
8 We currently employee about 8,000 people in New York
9 State, of which about 7,200 are in the Corning area.
10 The others are in Rochester, Oneonta, and Canton. We
11 wholeheartedly and enthusiastically support keeping
12 the rural fabric and small-city character of this
13 District. We have an excellent working relationship
14 with communities and small cities like Watkins,
15 Corning, Elmira, Cornell, Bath, Jamestown.
16 And we would favor probably moving to
17 the east, and that would mean counties like Tioga
18 and/or Tompkins County. Again, you're keeping the
19 rural nature, as well as the small cities. I also
20 like the idea and think the communities in our
21 District are very well-connected with the commonality
22 of the Finger Lakes, particularly Keuka, Seneca, and
23 Cayuga.
24 We have a tremendous tourism business,
25 and we have wineries. I would point out that the
0091
1 Corning Glass Museum is the second largest upstate
2 tourist attraction.
3 As you well know, our former chairman
4 and CEO Amo Houghton has served in this Congressional
5 District for 14 years, and has done a terrific job.
6 But I agree with the fact that this isn't about
7 personalities. This is about the commonality and the
8 character of this District. It is a bipartisan
9 effort, as has been emphasized today. Besides a lot
10 of Republican leadership, we have people like Jim
11 Kerr (phonetic spelling) being the Chancellor of the
12 Board of Regents, and have joined with Senator Cool,
13 Assemblyman Winter, and Assemblyman McKalis (phonetic
14 spelling) to try to preserve this District.
15 I think that's very important. Going
16 forward, in order to continue to have our voice
17 heard, we need a homogeneous District that has that
18 rural and small-city flavor.
19 So, I'd be happy to answer any
20 questions. I don't relish the task that you have
21 ahead of you. I commend you for the work that you're
22 going to be doing, but would emphasize that we really
23 want a homogeneous rural/small-city District
24 preserved in the Southern Tier of New York State.
25 Thank you very much.
0092
1 FROM THE PANEL: Welcome to Rochester.
2 And I just wanted to ask the same question I asked
3 Mr. Rutan: In essence, looking at the current map,
4 and recognizing that we have because of shrinking
5 numbers of Districts in this State and the increased
6 size because of the fact that they're getting bigger,
7 but in essence your philosophical map, exactly what
8 we did last the last time?
9 MR. TRANTER: Exactly.
10 FROM THE PANEL: To save the cities and
11 the suburban areas that have a more city-based focus,
12 the big cities of Rochester, Syracuse and Buffalo,
13 and say those Districts want to be preserved because
14 it's important to preserve the rural character of
15 counties. And I think you probably pointed out, I
16 think Wyoming has something in common with Allegany
17 and Cattaraugus; and Livingston clearly has the same
18 kind of character as you drive up 390. And
19 certainly, for Ontario, those are communities that
20 are relatively close to yours and have the same kind
21 of character, so --.
22 MR. TRANTER: Yeah, the north wave of
23 it is okay, although I would say your question
24 earlier about Canandaigua Lake, I'd leave that in the
25 Rochester wave. I think the majority of people that
0093
1 reside and vacation there are going to come from the
2 Rochester area, whereas the other lakes that I
3 mentioned I think tend to come more from the Southern
4 Tier.
5 MR. DOLLINGER: Yeah. When you say
6 that, it's one of the critical questions not so much
7 where they summer, but where the count is. I guess
8 that those will all count in Rochester.
9 MR. TRANTER: Rochester. Right.
10 MR. DOLLINGER: That's their primary
11 residence. But I think your point is well-taken, and
12 I think that you're, in essence, saying it's your
13 request for New York the same way it was treated last
14 time --
15 MR. TRANTER: Exactly.
16 MR. DOLLINGER: -- given the
17 constraints that we have? Okay.
18 FROM THE PANEL: Tom?
19 MR. TRANTER: Yes.
20 FROM THE PANEL: Just to follow up a
21 little bit on Senator Dollinger's question, I own a
22 second home and I guess a lot of us do, and I hadn't
23 thought about that until now. Since we can only vote
24 in one place, and you're here in a resort town like
25 Lake Placid where I hear of non-residents always
0094
1 complaining about the fact that their property taxes
2 are going to be going to the vote now, it just
3 occurred to me that there probably is a very valid
4 consideration for this Task Force to take into if
5 people have second homes it might be a good idea to
6 have your second homes in the same Congressional
7 District as their residence.
8 MR. TRANTER: I think that makes a lot
9 of sense, and I would submit to you that I think a
10 good portion of the people that reside with summer
11 homes at Cayuga Lake and Keuka Lake and Seneca Lake
12 would come from the Southern Tier area in our current
13 District.
14 FROM THE PANEL: And there are other
15 things to --.
16 MR. TRANTER: And I would also submit
17 that we like Cornell; you and I both have a son
18 there. And that, I think, is very compatible as was
19 mentioned. We have a very close personal
20 relationship, not only with Cornell, but University
21 of Rochester and R.I.T. as a center for excellence as
22 well.
23 So, thank you very much.
24 FROM THE PANEL: Thank you.
25 President and C.E.O. of the Broome
0095
1 Chamber of Commerce, is he here?
2 MR. ALEX DEPERSIS, PRESIDENT AND CEO,
3 BROOME CHAMBER OF COMMERCE: I thank you for the
4 opportunity to offer a few comments. Again, my name
5 is Alex DePersis. I am the President of the Broome
6 County Chamber of Commerce, a position I've held now
7 for approximately eight months, though I've been in
8 the District my entire working career, just to set
9 that record straight.
10 As I understood it, the issue that's
11 before us is whether or not to maintain Broome and
12 Tioga Counties as one Congressional District, and as
13 I thought through that issue from the perspective of
14 the Chamber and Representatives here, I had posed to
15 two questions, and they both went something like
16 this: Do we currently - and when I say "we" I mean
17 business communities in Broome and Tioga Counties -
18 act today as one community? And the second question:
19 Are there advantages to us remaining as one
20 community?
21 And I answered both of those questions
22 as I thought through them. And I do that, again, on
23 the context of the Chamber and being the Chamber
24 Executive, and that the Chamber of Commerce itself is
25 a member-to-member or business-to-business
0096
1 membership-driven organization. We have businesses
2 both within the County of Broome and the County of
3 Tioga that are due-paying members. Now, they pay
4 dues to us because they understand that we support
5 those mutual interests that the business community
6 that both of those Counties have today, regardless of
7 the fact there's boundaries on the map that separate
8 them.
9 In addition to the dues that they pay
10 to the Chamber, many businesses within the Tioga and
11 Broome Counties, Tioga and Broom County, support
12 other programs, both through participation of their
13 staff, their officers, and also support financially,
14 many individual programs that support their common
15 objectives, common objective goals.
16 And there are several examples I could
17 cite regarding how we work together. Just to name a
18 few, we just finished, as a matter of fact, the
19 Broome Business Show here, which is the largest
20 business-to-business show that's held in this area.
21 And, again, we draw both attendees and exhibitors
22 from the business community from both Counties. And
23 that's been the history of that show now for several
24 years.
25 We also work together, again,
0097
1 businesses from Tioga and Broome on the recruitment
2 issue. Lockheed, for example, which you've heard
3 there from Frank Myers earlier, as one of the
4 founders of the Regional Improvement Task Force that
5 operates here in the Broome-Tioga County areas to
6 attract the labor force that is necessary to meet the
7 needs of the business community here in our Southern
8 Tier region.
9 We also work very closely with the
10 Broome-Tioga Work Force Development Board, which the
11 members of that group include the officials from
12 government from both Tioga and Broome, and also
13 members of the business community from both those
14 Counties, and also several other representatives or
15 stakeholders in both of those communities in terms of
16 working on work-force-development issues for both
17 training and, again, recruitment-issue hearings.
18 We also share a common effort with
19 regard to economic development, through the Southern
20 Tier Economic Development Council, which is a
21 relatively new organization, but one that has come
22 together as a public partnership since October of
23 last year.
24 Another example of the kind of work we
25 do together: In Tioga County there's a site known as
0098
1 the Voluntary Site. We have worked together with
2 officials from Tioga County, both government here in
3 Broome, along with officials from Tioga County,
4 members and representatives from our Broome County
5 I.D.A., and also members from the Economic
6 Development Council, working to help them develop
7 that site. Our sense is that development of that
8 site is beneficial to our entire community. And if
9 the folks would be employed by a business that is
10 located on that site, a number of them would live in
11 the Broome County market area in the Broome County
12 area.
13 Also there's Partnership 2000, which
14 again is a collaboration of the business communities
15 from both of those Counties. They support dollars in
16 that organization, and retain dollars through the
17 Southern Tier region.
18 And finally, there is a common
19 legislative agenda that we develop each year in the
20 business communities from both of those Counties. We
21 really are one community; we're very, very homogenous
22 in this. But we develop a survey each year and take
23 that to our elected representatives in the Southern
24 Tier area.
25 I think there are a number of examples
0099
1 of how we work together currently as a business
2 community, and it's something that -- it's an effort
3 that we'd like to continue to undertake as a group,
4 given our homogeneous interests here. Are there
5 advantages to us remaining that as one District?
6 Given our similarities, we'd certainly argue the
7 answer to that question is yes. And as a matter of
8 fact, I think we've all come to realize everywhere
9 that if you're going to get much accomplished, we
10 come together as a community and speak with one
11 voice.
12 We think that is important that we have
13 a representative, too, that speaks with one voice,
14 and is spending enough time with us to understand
15 what our interests are, what the issues are to us,
16 that takes the time to understand the whys. Okay.
17 It's not just what; it's why. And I think that,
18 again, our interests are so homogeneous in nature
19 that it's beneficial then for us to remain as one
20 District.
21 And I would also mention in the same
22 context that though we are two separate counties,
23 separated only by boundary lines on the map, that
24 many of the people that work in Tioga County - the
25 major employer is Lockheed Martin - many of those
0100
1 people live in Broome. And likewise, many of the
2 people that work in Broome live in Tioga County.
3 Again, we then are one community. And,
4 again, our interests are homogeneous in nature. We
5 are, again, speaking in one voice given the strong
6 partnerships that have been formed between the
7 private and public sectors. And, again, we have a
8 sense that we'd like to be represented by one elected
9 representative.
10 Anybody have any questions?
11 Thank you very much.
12 FROM THE PANEL: Thank you very much.
13 Martha Sauerbrey?
14 MS. MARTHA SAUERBREY, EXECUTIVE
15 DIRECTOR, TIOGA COUNTY CHAMBER OF COMMERCE: My name
16 is Martha Sauerbrey. I was going to say good morning
17 when I got here, but it looks like it's afternoon.
18 I'm the President and CEO of the Tioga
19 County Chamber of Commerce in Owego, New York. The
20 Tioga County Chamber of Commerce strongly supports
21 the plan to keep Broome and Tioga County in the same
22 legislative District.
23 Broome and Tioga County are in many
24 ways one community, and I know that you just heard
25 that, but I just want to bring that home again that
0101
1 Broome and Tioga County governments, along with
2 businesses from the private sector, are working
3 together on such projects as Work Force Development,
4 securing jobs or training for our citizens; Work
5 Force Development Youth Council, which is working to
6 keep kids in school as it's getting them ready to
7 enter the work force.
8 The original marketing plan is under
9 way between the two Counties, with the goal of
10 recruiting people from all over the country to work
11 and live in Broome and Tioga Counties.
12 The Tioga County Chamber of Commerce
13 serves businesses in both Broome and Tioga County.
14 The annual business show, sponsored by the Chamber,
15 involves businesses from the entire region. A lot of
16 percent of Tioga County residents, as it occurs, work
17 in Broome County and travel a short distance to and
18 from work daily. Likewise, Broome County citizens
19 come to Tioga County to find work.
20 The Susquehanna River brings a natural
21 synergism of tourism between the two counties by way
22 of canoeing, fishing and the recent SUNY Binghamton
23 Regatta. The majority of Broome and Tioga County
24 citizens are served by the same public utilities.
25 SUNY Binghamton and Broome Community College are
0102
1 major educational resources for Tioga County.
2 Tioga County has no hospital, and the
3 majority of residents go to Broome County for
4 treatment and health care at Binghamton General or
5 Wilson Memorial Hospital.
6 I-86 is a natural link between the
7 communities for shopping, services, health care and
8 employment. The highway brings shoppers from Broome
9 County to Tioga County to shop and have lunch in
10 historic downtown Owego. Likewise, folks from Barton
11 and North Valley shop at the Vestal Town Square, and
12 attend services at St. Peter and Paul Russian
13 Orthodox Church in Endicott, and go to Wilson
14 Memorial Hospital in Johnson City to have their
15 children.
16 As you see, Broome and Tioga Counties
17 are separate Counties, yet act like one community.
18 It makes sense to keep Broome and Tioga County in the
19 same legislative District to secure sufficient
20 government representation and services for our
21 communities.
22 And I would have to say if someone
23 asked me the question about which way to move the
24 Congressional District, after listening to folks
25 speak today, I'm beginning to realize the importance
0103
1 of keeping the integrity and the personality of the
2 Counties, and so my personal opinion would be to go
3 east or west.
4 FROM THE PANEL: No questions. Thank
5 you very much.
6 MS. SAUERBREY: Thank you.
7 FROM THE PANEL: Charlie Quagliata?
8 Dr. Thomas Kelly?
9 DR. THOMAS KELLY, VICE PRESIDENT,
10 EXTERNAL AFFAIRS, BINGHAMTON UNIVERSITY: Good
11 afternoon, gentlemen, distinguished Legislators. I
12 appreciate the opportunity to share some thoughts
13 with you. I am Vice-President for External Affairs
14 and Professor of Management at Binghamton University
15 of the State University of New York.
16 We view our involvement in higher
17 education and our mission of teaching, research and
18 service as being aimed at the entire New York State.
19 We are more concerned with who we serve and how we
20 can serve them better than with the difficulties
21 you've been faced with, all of you, when you know you
22 have to make those decisions.
23 We view our role as serving primarily
24 the State, and back that up by pointing to our
25 enrollment, which mirrors the population of the
0104
1 State. About 55 percent of our students come from
2 the greater New York Metropolitan area and Long
3 Island. About 16 percent of our students come from
4 Broome and Tioga Counties, and about 19 percent of
5 our students then come from all of the other counties
6 of Upstate New York. And we do attract students from
7 about 40 States in the nation, and from over 100
8 nations around the world.
9 But if you were then to say to me,
10 "Well, if you're serving the State when you do focus
11 in on your local region, what would you consider your
12 core region to be?" we would think of that core
13 region as beginning somewhere east of Binghamton,
14 stretching along Route 17 somewhere to the west,
15 extending into Tioga County, and then down the
16 Pennsylvania border and come more to the north.
17 And our boundary, if you push on where
18 the boundaries would be, we would think of the
19 locations of some of our other SUNY sister
20 institutions being Oneonta and Delphi, serving in the
21 east, and Morrisville in the northeast, Cortland just
22 northwest of us, Cornell, our statutory sister
23 colleges, and then Elmira College, Corning Community
24 College and Alfred to the west. So, we serve this
25 Broome-Tioga County corridor with our other sister
0105
1 institution, Broome Community College.
2 When you look then and ask us about our
3 economic development services that we extend to the
4 State, we're involved in corporate research with some
5 of the major corporations in the Broome and Tioga
6 County area. For example, our Center for Advanced
7 Technology and our Watson School of Engineering is
8 very much involved with companies such as I.B.M.,
9 E.A.E., Universal Instruments, all located within
10 Broome County; and with Lockheed Martin, located
11 within Tioga County.
12 Our strategic partnership for
13 industrial research serves the smaller high-tech
14 companies located primarily throughout the Broome and
15 Tioga County regions, but we will serve and do serve
16 a broader area than that. We deliver a message of
17 business administration program, not only on campus,
18 but in various corporate studies; at United Hospital
19 Services Corporation at I.B.M. in Endicott, at
20 N.Y.S.E.G. and, again, at Lockheed Martin in Tioga
21 County.
22 If you look at where our employees
23 come - and we are the second largest employer in
24 Broome County - with about 4,500 employees during the
25 academic year, of that figure about 2,500 of them are
0106
1 our core employees, and 86 percent of them come from
2 the Broome and Tioga County area. When we apply for
3 grants, we often apply for them to serve, again, that
4 two-County area, such as the case with our recent New
5 York State Department of Labor grant, which will
6 provide for high-tech training of workers in these
7 two areas.
8 We have a Small Business Development
9 Center, which services a nine-County area.
10 Literally, half are in Broome County, and about an
11 additional ten percent in Tioga County. There are a
12 number of foundations that support our students and
13 provide scholarships. One of them is located in
14 Delaware County, and they provide annual scholarships
15 to support their students from that County. And the
16 same is true from another foundation located in Tioga
17 County; and, of course, many donors from the Broome
18 County area provide similar scholarship assistance.
19 Currently, we have good relationships
20 with all of our State and Federal Legislators, and
21 again we continue to focus on State and in particular
22 on our Broome and Tioga County area.
23 So, I don't envy you the task that is
24 before you. I thank you for this opportunity to
25 speak with you, and I would be happy to respond to
0107
1 any questions.
2 FROM THE PANEL: I don't have any
3 questions.
4 DR. KELLY: Thank you.
5 FROM THE PANEL: Thanks very much.
6 FROM THE PANEL: You want my kids from
7 Long Island?
8 DR. KELLY: Oh, we're happy to do that.
9 Long Island, just keep sending them to us.
10 FROM THE PANEL: Steve Sweeney, from
11 the Chautauqua County Legislature.
12 MR. STEVE SWEENEY, CHAUTAUQUA COUNTY
13 LEGISLATURE: Good afternoon, gentlemen.
14 FROM THE PANEL: Good afternoon.
15 MR. SWEENEY: Robert Frost once wrote,
16 "There's something there is that does not love a
17 wall." I believe that dividing the 31st
18 Congressional District the way we know it would be
19 putting walls between good neighbors.
20 As it now stands New York's 31st
21 Congressional District is one of the largest in the
22 State. Some say it is ludicrous to have a
23 representative stretched out for some 230 or more
24 miles from Lake Erie and Lake Chautauqua to the
25 southern-most regions of the Seneca and Cayuga Lakes.
0108
1 I would say that nothing in this world could make
2 more perfect sense.
3 We in the 31st District have a common
4 bond which makes even the most distant towns and
5 villages a part of our regional identity. This bond
6 includes many things from the similarities in our
7 topography and climate to relative proximity we all
8 have to the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, and all the
9 implications this has for our economies.
10 Our bond does not break there, however.
11 Farms and orchards, being what they are, are cared
12 for in the same ways and methods in Chautauqua as in
13 Steuben or Allegany. We experience in the same way
14 the effects of severe lake-effect snowstorms, the
15 flooding creeks and streams; and when it occurs,
16 drought. There is no easy way to explain what it is
17 about the Southern Tier which makes it special, other
18 than to say that the atmosphere and culture of this
19 region is different from that of any city.
20 We have never focused on Buffalo,
21 Rochester or Syracuse for our livelihood, nor are
22 they the centers for our social activities. Instead,
23 we have long understood in the Southern Tier that the
24 survival of our economies and unique region depends
25 on cooperation. This is why we have chosen to
0109
1 support one another in our endeavors. We take pride
2 in having many local organizations which foster
3 greater interdependence within the Southern Tier.
4 For instance, we have worked together in
5 intergovernmental groups like the Southern Tier West
6 Regional Task Force, the Southern Tier Rail
7 Authority, the Interstate 86 Coalition and countless
8 other organizations and acts which seek to bring our
9 communities closer together.
10 Our current Congressman, Representative
11 Amory Houghton, has been extremely helpful in
12 clearing the way for these kinds of cooperative
13 efforts. Without his support and encouragement, it
14 would be extremely difficult for us to have foreseen
15 the timely completion of New York Route 17, let alone
16 the possibility of its upgrade to Interstate 86.
17 Congressman Houghton, because he represents a whole
18 region, and not merely part of one or two counties,
19 has been able to champion issues on our behalf which
20 might otherwise be forgotten. These include the
21 upgrade of Route 17 to Interstate 86, the ever-heated
22 debate over the Northeast Dairy Compact, and other
23 issues too numerous to be counted at these
24 proceedings.
25 I am able to see very clearly how a
0110
1 Congressional District born of the Southern Tier is
2 effective. As New York State's youngest County
3 Legislator, I represent a completely residential
4 section of the city of Jamestown. Our needs are
5 fulfilled and understood because they are like those
6 in Olean, Elmira, Dunkirk and Corning. There is
7 never a question as to what solutions are necessary,
8 because the staff are not stretched to become
9 specialists in urban and industrial affairs as well
10 as the unique needs of a rural region. They, like
11 our Congressman, understand us, sympathize with us
12 and vouch for our concerns.
13 Therefore, I humbly beseech this
14 Committee to take into account what mere sentiments I
15 propose, and find it within their collective
16 reasoning to keep undivided our voice in Washington
17 D.C., the 31st Congressional District.
18 FROM THE PANEL: Steve, thanks for
19 making the journey all the way down here. I
20 appreciate your testimony. I'll just pose to you the
21 questions we've posed to everyone else: Where would
22 we go to get the population necessary to make this
23 District large enough?
24 MR. SWEENEY: Well, as already been
25 said, we cannot go into Pennsylvania or Lake Erie,
0111
1 which is disappointing to some of us. We can go
2 north, northeast or east. What is really important
3 here is not so much what specific area or territory,
4 so long as we keep the rural nature of the District
5 intact or something similar to what we have now.
6 Thank you.
7 FROM THE PANEL: Just for the record,
8 Mr. County Legislator, in essence you would support
9 the same philosophy that we did the last time ten
10 years ago, which is to take the nature of urban areas
11 in Upstate New York, Syracuse, Rochester, Buffalo,
12 put them into Congressional Districts, and then unite
13 the rural/small-city character, the lake character,
14 of however many Districts we can put in, and as far
15 east as we needed to go to find the population we
16 needed to do it; is that a fair account?
17 MR. SWEENEY: That would be a fair
18 assessment; yes.
19 FROM THE PANEL: Okay. Just one other
20 question. You obviously are in a -- I think you
21 described it as a residential suburb of Jamestown?
22 MR. SWEENEY: Yes, it's a completely
23 residential section of the city of Jamestown.
24 FROM THE PANEL: Okay. And I want to
25 just make one point. I mean, that makes you
0112
1 different from some of the other people in the
2 current 31st Congressional District. It's not
3 possible that someone can represent rural areas and
4 small cities, they can also represent well a
5 residential area in size; it is not possible?
6 MR. SWEENEY: The thing is, the section
7 I represent is a part of the city, but it is like a
8 small village. It is like any other small village or
9 small city. So, it is easy to combine the smallness
10 of the city or village with the rural nature, just
11 because we live there, we are a part of each other's
12 communities and each other's surroundings, our
13 activities, our baseball teams, what have you.
14 FROM THE PANEL: But the fact that it's
15 a small city with predominantly rural-character
16 section of the State would suggest that's where the
17 interest is in aligning itself with more rural areas
18 than with the big cities; is that correct?
19 MR. SWEENEY: That is correct.
20 FROM THE PANEL: Thanks.
21 FROM THE PANEL: Thanks for coming all
22 the way over here. How far outside the 31st District
23 are we right now; how many miles about?
24 MR. SWEENEY: Maybe about fifty
25 outside.
0113
1 FROM THE PANEL: You know, this
2 District -- and you made the point you can do this
3 travel.
4 MR. SWEENEY: Yes.
5 FROM THE PANEL: And I would make the
6 point as well. I live in the 24th, which by the way,
7 is twice the size of the 31st.
8 MR. SWEENEY: Yes.
9 FROM THE PANEL: The Adirondack Region,
10 if you'd like to move to the 24th, it's really the
11 biggest District in the State. My point is we make,
12 just by coming here, a point that those who say the
13 District really is too big to ask somebody to
14 represent our region, and in addition it's just too
15 big geographically, we probably shouldn't take that
16 into consideration?
17 MR. SWEENEY: I don't think you should.
18 It's really not an issue here. I can get from
19 Fredonia to Corning in under three hours, depending
20 on the State Police patrol.
21 FROM THE PANEL: Thank you very much.
22 Elsie Wager?
23 MS. ELSIE WAGER, PRESIDENT, NEW YORK
24 STATE LEAGUE OF WOMEN VOTERS: Good afternoon for my
25 testimony also. Good morning --.
0114
1 FROM THE FLOOR: I can't hear.
2 MS. WAGER: I'm sorry. Can you hear
3 now?
4 FROM THE FLOOR: Yes.
5 MS. WAGER: Okay. Good afternoon
6 Senator Skelos, Assemblyman Parment, Senator
7 Dollinger and Assemblyman Ortloff. I am Elsie Wager,
8 and I'm the President of the New York State League of
9 Women Voters, and also a member of Broome-Tioga
10 League. We have prepared for you today a short
11 testimony that is about to become even shorter. If
12 you read half as well as you listen, you'll have no
13 problem, I'm sure, reading the full testimony on your
14 own.
15 The League is very pleased that you are
16 conducting these hearings this morning. It is
17 evident to me that you are listening, you are
18 proposing questions to the people who are testifying
19 before you. For that I compliment you, and I thank
20 you.
21 The League believes that the following
22 two recommendations would ensure a process that best
23 allows for citizen input and for legislative
24 Districts that give all voters - all voters - an
25 equal voice in a representative democracy.
0115
1 Recommendation One: Allow the public
2 to participate in the redistricting process. You
3 have a great start. And you can go out on about the
4 latest buzz word. The League believes it should be a
5 transparent process. We urge your Task Force to add
6 to your website all information it uses in the
7 development of District lines. Earlier today, I have
8 heard that, you know, you want to come back here and
9 put some maps on the wall. We'd like also to see
10 those maps on the website.
11 Advances in technology could allow the
12 citizens to be participants at every step in this
13 process. In one of the press releases announcing
14 these hearings you invited, and I quote, "Citizens to
15 become involved and help you draw the lines." We
16 hope that throughout this process, you will
17 provide -- continue to provide, I will say,
18 opportunities for citizen review and input. We would
19 like to see draft District lines made public early in
20 2002 so that citizens may have time to consider and
21 comment. This morning I was looking at the Iowa
22 website, and their lines are off there. We would
23 like to see ours in our State.
24 Recommendation Two: The League
25 recommends that you use a non-partisan, I'm sorry,
0116
1 redistricting system for drawing lines, and that the
2 lines should be drawn by a non-partisan commission.
3 Attached to this testimony, I have given you a copy
4 of the home page for Iowa, and we do something very
5 similar to that.
6 In addition to the above
7 recommendations, the League has developed specific
8 guidelines for the process for redistricting. They
9 are being sent to your office. They would take a lot
10 of reading here, and we feel that you might best
11 review them if you have time to do that in your
12 office, and then we would be very pleased to answer
13 any questions about our guidelines.
14 The guidelines and the League's
15 position on apportionment are based on the conviction
16 that population equality is the most equitable way of
17 assuring that each vote is of equal value in a
18 democratic and representative system of government:
19 One person/one vote.
20 I thank you for the opportunity that
21 you have provided for me today, and for all the other
22 speakers who have come before you. We look forward
23 to working with you as this process moves on.
24 Thank you.
25 FROM THE FLOOR: We just have a couple
0117
1 of questions. We can't let you get out of this one.
2 MS. WAGER: Okay. Let's hear it.
3 FROM THE PANEL: The League has
4 stressed a repetitiveness in some of the statements
5 that they've sent to us.
6 MR. WAGER: I'm sorry.
7 FROM THE PANEL: And in some of the
8 statements that they've sent to us, I just wondered:
9 What are the goals or objectives of theirs that they
10 would like to see reflected in new Districts? And
11 the question would be whether that would be a higher
12 goal than community integrity; should we split
13 communities to create new Districts?
14 MS. WAGER: In our opinion, it should
15 be based on population; and I realize that that's a
16 difficult situation. When you see our guidelines,
17 the specific guidelines, you will see that number one
18 is - and I just jot it down what they are - equal
19 population followed by integrity for some conditions,
20 and contact with all those Districts.
21 Now, we are interested in competitive
22 races. We feel that through this clashing, if you
23 will, of debate among candidates, that businesses
24 will for one thing become more excited about this
25 whole process. And also, this will give them a
0118
1 better opportunity to hear all kinds of questions,
2 and a lot more background to make a decision on when
3 they go in to vote for the next candidate, so that
4 would result in a more accurate symmetry. Of course,
5 our main mission is to promote the informed
6 participation of citizens.
7 FROM THE PANEL: Let me just remark on
8 the question of equal population.
9 MS. WAGER: Uh-huh.
10 FROM THE PANEL: I'm sure that I speak
11 for others on this Panel. We are very keen on
12 that --
13 MS. WAGER: Uh-huh.
14 FROM THE PANEL: -- in major part
15 because we understand it to be a requirement --
16 MS. WAGER: Right.
17 FROM THE PANEL: -- of the Federal
18 Constitution and the case laws associated with it.
19 MS. WAGER: Uh-huh.
20 FROM THE PANEL: And as Senator Skelos
21 pointed out earlier, I think this is the consensus of
22 all of us on the Task Force: The Congressional
23 Districts must be exactly equal with a deviation no
24 greater than one individual.
25 As you go down the list, of course, the
0119
1 opportunity to maximize those priorities second,
2 third, fourth and fifth become lessened by maximizing
3 the first through the second, and third one. I just
4 want to know, because it does have a big impact on
5 our work, and we're trying to sort out here, and what
6 you're saying to us, kind of a philosophy of
7 government more than which communities should go
8 together.
9 So, my question is: In trying to
10 create the priority list that you had, where does
11 competitiveness come? Now, let's say for instance we
12 had to divide Broome and Tioga County to create a
13 competitive District. Would that be preferable to
14 leaving Broome and Tioga together in the State Senate
15 District?
16 MS. WAGER: When you see the specific
17 guidelines, they did not address competitiveness.
18 FROM THE PANEL: Okay.
19 MS. WAGER: All right. And --.
20 FROM THE PANEL: So, they're really the
21 same as the League had given to us?
22 MS. WAGER: Right. But in our
23 guidelines, you're going to see we have not addressed
24 that. And as you know, the guide book -- you may not
25 have seen it. The League operates by doing a study,
0120
1 arriving at consensus, and then have it then address
2 specifically. However, at this point we are looking
3 to update it, and that may be what the others, I
4 assume, probably will correlate what it's referring
5 to. But you will get, you know, the guidelines.
6 But as far as speaking for the League,
7 based on their study at this point in time, I can't
8 address that.
9 FROM THE PANEL: Okay.
10 MS. WAGER: Any others?
11 MR. DOLLINGER: Just one. Is it the
12 League's intention to draw a plan that incorporates
13 the values that you've articulated and the concepts
14 you've obviously put a series of values in the
15 redistricting process on the table; is it the
16 League's intention to draw a plan for the State of
17 New York for Congressional Districts or Senate and
18 Assembly Districts incorporating those values?
19 MS. WAGER: For us to do a
20 redistricting map?
21 MR. DOLLINGER: Yes, and that would
22 give us --.
23 MS. WAGER: We would like so much to do
24 it, but we have not been -- actually, there isn't
25 time for us to raise the funds for a staff to do it.
0121
1 And we have not been able to get the volunteers to do
2 it. We certainly have the software that we think we
3 could do it, but we cannot do it. We discussed it.
4 We cannot do it in a timely fashion.
5 MR. DOLLINGER: I would just encourage
6 you, if there's a way to overcome this hurdle, to try
7 working with an academic institution or some other
8 group. It seems to me that to achieve your goal of
9 getting more people involved in redistricting
10 process, one of the ways to do that is encourage
11 people that have values that they articulate on
12 behalf of a group to sit down and try to deal with
13 the task that we have to deal with. I think all my
14 colleagues have said it's not going to be easy to
15 figure out how to meet the needs expressed, the
16 concerns expressed, at the same time we do start the
17 Congressional delegation running too, and meet our
18 obligations to the Assembly and Senate seats as well.
19 So, I would just encourage you to take
20 those values and show us what they would look like in
21 your concept.
22 MS. WAGER: You've just put that back
23 on my list. Thank you. We'll come back to look at
24 that. We are going to actually early next week be
25 looking at the guidelines again, you know, and
0122
1 addressing them. But we're mainly an organization of
2 volunteers, and we'll discuss it at length. We just
3 don't have the person power.
4 MR. DOLLINGER: All right.
5 MS. WAGER: But we are very interested
6 in, you know, the idea of an academic institution.
7 Other questions?
8 FROM THE PANEL: I'd like to second
9 Senator Dollinger's motion to this extent, and I say
10 this to everybody in the room who can get access to a
11 PC. There's software. Do you have software; did you
12 say?
13 MS. WAGER: We do not have it in the
14 office, but I know of the software; yes. I'm aware
15 of the software.
16 FROM THE PANEL: Two things. It's very
17 instructive for a citizen to actually draw up a plan
18 here. It's easy to draw up one District. It's much
19 more difficult to try to draw twenty-nine without
20 leaving out some. My experience is much less
21 excessive than Senator Skelos. Very often people
22 will comment that they don't like a particular aspect
23 of a plan. If you'd had the time to walk them
24 through the process, it's not always the case, but
25 very often is the case that the realization occurs
0123
1 that there really wasn't any better way to do it.
2 It's like what we say about our whole system: It's
3 the worst system in the world, except for every other
4 one.
5 So, this is a real-world task, and
6 there really aren't all that many ways to do it, once
7 you actually start doing it. So, for that reason, I
8 would encourage you to believe that for its own
9 members maybe, and for the general public, to put up
10 a software title for people who really wanted to try,
11 can come and try to do it themselves, if for no other
12 reason than to learn the complexity.
13 Number two, if you're going to along
14 the lines of New York State Public Research group and
15 maybe others, if you're going to set yourselves up in
16 this process, then really you're behooved to invest
17 in software, even if you don't invite other to
18 participate.
19 But you have the ability to analyze
20 what we are doing. And this is what my comment would
21 be: Your comparison to the Iowa system, I note the
22 Iowa system gives you maps in PDF files. They don't
23 do a thing to your ability to analyze the innards of
24 that plan; you just see the result. But you don't
25 necessarily even see the population or the ethnic
0124
1 make-up of the towns within that. You only have the
2 outcome. You really need to be able to look within.
3 To that, I would recommend that you
4 amend your recommendations to us that not only do we
5 add to our website the maps, but that we do whatever
6 we can to make it possible for you and others to
7 obtain the equivalency files, so that whatever
8 software you have, you can make a timely analysis,
9 utilizing the technology that is available, and get
10 back to us with your comments so we can have a
11 dialogue. I would much rather have a dialogue - I'm
12 sure I speak for everybody - than to have a plan, and
13 for ten years have people say it wasn't sufficient.
14 If there's an opportunity to make it better, we have
15 to use the technology and we have to have the
16 dialogue.
17 And I want to ask you a question about
18 your non-partisan approach. Are you saying that you
19 really believe it's better to have District lines
20 drawn by people who have never won an election, never
21 run in an election, do not belong to a political
22 organization, or really have no concept of what it
23 means to organize and run the political process?
24 MS. WAGER: No, we're not saying that.
25 It would be overseen by the Legislature. It's my
0125
1 understanding that in Iowa, in fact, the first plan
2 they drew was turned down. And then they could come
3 back with their second. And if the second is --
4 they're not supposed to amend one or two, but the
5 third plan - and I believe in 1990 it took three
6 plans - the third plan may be amended by the
7 Legislators. So, we envision some oversight. We're
8 not saying you should go out on the street or, you
9 know, just put an ad and bring in people who are
10 totally without background or an appreciation for the
11 entire process.
12 FROM THE PANEL: I'm glad you clarified
13 that, because we're absolutely interested in much of
14 what you put out at press conference in the last
15 month or so. What I see in here is that people who
16 have any partisan name ought to be disqualified from
17 participating in the process. I think what we have
18 instead is a process where we have balance. This
19 Commission is made up of three Republicans and three
20 Democrats.
21 MS. WAGER: Your commission is the type
22 of thing that we have worked to have for many years.
23 And I thought, well, what other organization worked
24 for, what, ten years to get the Lotto Bill, 30 years
25 on other topics, so that we are not -- you know,
0126
1 we're not committed to just employing anyone,
2 obviously, but we are concerned about the drawing of
3 Districts that would favor income levels, and, you
4 know, that there would be a grievance between the two
5 houses, the one house a majority Democrats, and the
6 other a majority of Republicans; that the District
7 lines not be drawn to favor incumbents.
8 Again, as I said earlier, we really
9 appreciate having what I would call an exciting
10 election where there are two real opponents running
11 with different ideas being expressed.
12 FROM THE PANEL: Thanks. One other
13 question: Did I hear you correctly when you said the
14 population is your number one priority?
15 MS. WAGER: That is our number one in
16 the guidelines that you will be receiving in your
17 office.
18 FROM THE PANEL: And you understand
19 that -- I'm sorry; go ahead.
20 MS. WAGER: It will be equal population
21 and the last thing -- that's the last thing I read to
22 you: Conviction that population equality is the way
23 to go. And as one of you said earlier on, clearly
24 you have a choice.
25 FROM THE PANEL: How would you advise
0127
1 us on how to anticipate changes in population over
2 the next ten years? For example, it may not be a
3 factor in Congressional Districts, but it's certainly
4 a factor in County Legislative Districts, where there
5 are subdivisions that have already been laid out,
6 which could be in ten years -- it's known by
7 everybody there that in ten years there may be five
8 thousand more people there. If you know that, or you
9 have reason to believe it, or if you know that the
10 city is trending upward or downward, isn't it just as
11 liable an approach to try to incorporate anticipation
12 of that so that your population is somewhat valid
13 over the whole decade?
14 MS. WAGER: I think that it's valid if
15 you have valid information. You said, you know, the
16 subdivision would be there. Looking to experts in
17 that area that can tell you what is going to happen,
18 for example, on what we hope, and what's most likely
19 to happen in that area. But we would urge you to,
20 you know, look to professionals in that area. And,
21 again, when asked by a citizen or, you know, a group
22 of citizens, the basic score, then as always then we
23 set out to say that, well, we did this and it's the
24 same.
25 Again, I thank you very much. I would
0128
1 regret that we had such a warm room. I don't know
2 why the air conditioner isn't higher.
3 FROM THE PANEL: Say it again.
4 MS. WAGER: Thank you again.
5 FROM THE FLOOR: We have another
6 witness who has asked to speak.
7 Anything else? If you could keep your
8 comments to five minutes. In particular, if there's
9 something new to add, we'd appreciate it. We
10 understand Tioga and Broome together, and we
11 understand the Southern Tier. If there's something
12 new that you'd like to add to that, we certainly
13 would appreciate it.
14 Christopher Norton?
15 MR. CHRISTOPHER NORTON, BINGHAMTON
16 BUSINESS OWNER AND FOUNDER: I'll try to keep this
17 brief. And first of all, I'd like to give my respect
18 to the organizations. And I'm thinking about someone
19 talked about rural versus urban, and in between
20 areas, and I've known both very good Republicans in
21 the past, conservative and liberals, and it's my
22 intention to say that I think that a good -- there's
23 no such thing as a good Democrat, good Republican or
24 good rural or good urban representative, a good
25 representative.
0129
1 A good representative can represent the
2 needs of their constituents much better, even if
3 those constituents' lives were inconsistent with
4 their own, and even if they do not have as much --
5 even if their lives were different from their
6 representative, let's say a not-so intelligent and
7 not-so experienced, not-so spiteful representative,
8 but who has more in common with the people.
9 And therefore I would like to say that
10 the difficult task you have had, when you take this
11 into consideration, as I'm sure you will, that there
12 are people in New York State -- most people in New
13 York State are very good at their jobs. We want to
14 maintain as many people that we now have as possible
15 for its citizens. If we know of someone who plans to
16 retire soon, that we try to keep as many of the good
17 people that we already have in our group, and take
18 away as few people from the future, because I truly
19 believe that more importantly than keeping the
20 District the same, consistent with every other part
21 of the District, that we keep the good people who are
22 our representatives in New York State. So, if we can
23 look in the future and say, "This person is not going
24 to be here in five years. This person is retiring
25 that lives here," think of those things so that the
0130
1 people who are already here can continue to do a good
2 job.
3 Thank you.
4 FROM THE PANEL: Next. John Solak?
5 MR. JOHN SOLAK, CITIZEN: As perennial
6 guest Lisa Tashi (phonetic spelling) used to say on
7 the Merv Griffin Show, "Hello, people." I'm John
8 Solak, and I'm CEO of a government program. I don't
9 have a radio connection to the business community,
10 although I'm a private businessman here in the area.
11 I've lived in Binghamton, Broome County, most of my
12 life. I'm a Green Party member running for the City
13 Council here in Binghamton, receiving 14 percent of
14 the vote. Whether that was due to my personality, I
15 can't say. I can say that I did get 30 times the
16 registered Green Party member vote.
17 In this chamber in 1974, there was a
18 eight-way Congressional Primary. Howard Robinson had
19 retired. He was a resident of Owego. And there was
20 four Democrats and four Republicans in this chamber.
21 And that hooked me my interest in politics, because I
22 feel that the more candidates the merrier. Having
23 run for public office, I can tell you this: That
24 grassroots candidacies are impeded by a large
25 geographic region. There is no question about it. I
0131
1 think once you get over 80 or 100 miles in length or
2 width, you impede the ability for people to run for
3 elected office. There are no longer professional
4 politicians.
5 I've heard a lot about the close
6 connection between Broome and Tioga County. Most of
7 those people are in the business community, and it is
8 a result of the Senatorial District and politics, the
9 reason that that cooperation developed. There is
10 nothing to say that it couldn't have had cooperation
11 with Cortland County. This is largely based on
12 politics.
13 For example, the Chamber of Commerce
14 President, who is the Chairman of our preeminent
15 financial institution here, own branches in
16 Skaneateles. They bought the Skaneateles Bank. So,
17 you can make the connection between Chenango County
18 and Broome County, too.
19 I would say that I'm in favor of an
20 approach that uses the big cities, which everybody
21 outside of the State knows, and I would just add I
22 would use Buffalo, Rochester, Syracuse, Albany, mix
23 the rural vote in with the city vote. People would
24 have to come down and win the rural vote. The rural
25 vote would be more important. I don't think that
0132
1 there's any -- you know, it's interesting to hear
2 people talk about quality of rural life and the
3 fierce independent nature of rural people wanting
4 their representative in Washington. I think those
5 folks, if they want more programs and want more money
6 from Washington, they'll see the quality of their
7 rural life decrease and not increase.
8 So, I would say that you do that. I'm
9 against breaking up the County lines. I think that
10 you cannot forecast population accurately. For
11 example, when we went to the County Legislative
12 System here in Broome County, we had more people than
13 we have today, yet the forecast called for half a
14 million people here. I think you could draw lots
15 with the numbers you've got now. You can't speculate
16 how many people are going to die, how long they're
17 going to live. We all might live to be 110 years
18 old. I don't know.
19 But it's interesting to me to see that
20 hell hath no fury like the politician scorned. The
21 reason you find out that people left this town was
22 largely due to political decision. We lost retirees,
23 we lost people with private capital that would have
24 stayed here, we missed the small city boom, a very,
25 very important boom.
0133
1 So, I think that the politicians have
2 caused a great deal of the economic problem here in
3 the State. It hasn't been just people moving to the
4 Sun Belt, because people are moving to the
5 God-forsaken places; they're moving to Wyoming, and
6 they're moving to Montana. They're seeking real
7 estate appreciation, they're seeking quality of life,
8 they're seeking lower taxation. That is clear.
9 What is happening in New York State,
10 we're seeing a mass migration of people from metro
11 New York into our rural counties, based on the
12 increasing number of Federal programs that have been
13 set up, and the increasing number of non-profit
14 organizations wanting to milk this gravy train.
15 So, I would ask you to take politics
16 out of it as much as you can. I think that a lot of
17 these organizations pretend to be non-partisan, but
18 frankly, are really left-win organizations. And I
19 think that the track record of that is clear. Now,
20 Congressman Hinchey has it all lined up here.
21 Congressman Hinchey has talked about his eight years'
22 tenure here in Broome County as being a success, and
23 it's anything but a success. He's lost 20,000 people
24 in this County alone. And so, the idea that he's had
25 successful tenure of office when all his County could
0134
1 do is work out one lease for Lockheed Martin and get
2 a $1.5 million for the Kilmer (phonetic spelling)
3 Building here for rehab, it's ludicrous. Mr.
4 Hinchey's constituent service - and I voted for him -
5 ever time he won, his continuance service has gone
6 way downhill.
7 A political constituent service is not
8 based on who you've got in office there. It's based
9 on desire and what the Congress person imparts to the
10 staff. It's not based on any local connection or
11 anything with that face on it. This particular
12 service, no doubt, has gone downhill tremendously.
13 But don't keep the County lines. We
14 certainly don't need a situation where we've got
15 three Congressman in the County. That is absolutely
16 horrible. Keep the one that is logical. I would say
17 that you draw them like an outsider would draw them,
18 you know, like somebody in Colorado would say, "Well,
19 here's Syracuse, and here's Binghamton. Here's
20 Rochester and here's Elmira." You know, make them up
21 and down, straight and down. Go from the lines.
22 And I think, if anything, the emphasis
23 should be the State to change the Assembly/Senate
24 Districts more than the Congressional Districts.
25 Thank you very much.
0135
1 FROM THE PANEL: Next in line, Wilson.
2 FROM THE PANEL: Can I ask a question
3 of this witness?
4 FROM THE PANEL: I'm sorry. Yeah.
5 FROM THE PANEL: You think my interest
6 will change in the Senate and Assembly District
7 lines. Only one other witness, I think, spoke to
8 these lines. One witness, as I recall, spoke to the
9 desire to have Broome-Tioga remain in one Senatorial
10 District. In what way would you envision changing
11 the lines, and what effect would changing the lines
12 impact; what would be the purpose?
13 MR. SOLAK: Well, the purpose of Tioga
14 County is there was one Assembly race - Dick Miller
15 (phonetic spelling) was involved in it, I think -
16 about ten years ago. And Tioga County routinely
17 saved the day for Dick Miller; I mean, it was that
18 close. So, like I say, I think that that's where the
19 partisan action is in the Assembly and Senatorial
20 Districts. To me, I'd like to see them, you know,
21 within the County. And I think, unfortunately, I
22 think the Congressional Districts will end up being
23 second fiddle in a primary vote around here, as I
24 understand it, where these people that have come here
25 today and in business unity, you will see
0136
1 Broome-Tioga together so that will benefit the
2 incumbent Senator. I mean, I don't think there's any
3 other explanation for it.
4 FROM THE PANEL: So, you would like
5 Districts to be more competitive in the Assembly and
6 the Senate; is that the point?
7 MR. SOLAK: Well, when you talk about
8 competitive, you're talking a lot about, for example,
9 in the Assembly race that we had here just with
10 Robert Warner's (phonetic spelling) Assembly race, we
11 had an Independent Party candidate who's the only
12 person that challenged him. And Jay Dinga, of
13 course, the incumbent Assemblyman, had no political
14 opposition. And there was a 95/five vote. There was
15 18,000 ballots left blank in that race.
16 So, that shows that some of the
17 Democrats were really quite partisan, and even though
18 they didn't like Mr. Warner all that much, they would
19 not vote for a third-party candidate, if their life
20 depended on it.
21 So, being competitive in my estimation
22 would be making the Districts smaller geographically.
23 That would make them competitive. And, in fact, if
24 you have to go to larger cities, that would certainly
25 do it. As far as media markets go, you know, we have
0137
1 three T.V. stations here or four T.V. stations here,
2 and, you know, there's plenty of coverage for a
3 grassroots candidate. I mean, you don't have to buy
4 any time; there's educational television station. We
5 lease cars when we have to travel a lot, you know,
6 when you have a day job or other interests. So,
7 that's all the answer; I don't know how to make it
8 clearer.
9 Thank you.
10 FROM THE PANEL: Bonnie Wilson?
11 MS. BONNIE WILSON, CITIZEN: Good
12 afternoon. Thank you for letting me speak. I will
13 be very brief, because I am on my lunch hour. And
14 that is essentially what I would like to talk to you
15 about.
16 This redistricting process is extremely
17 important to all of Upstate; certainly to the members
18 of this community. And I was disturbed, and some
19 others of us were disturbed, that there was not much
20 advance notice or publicity or any kind of outreach
21 to get people here who are not representative of
22 special interests or who are not politicians.
23 I was only able to come at noon, and in
24 the time I've been here, other than the League of
25 Women Voters, I haven't heard anyone who might be
0138
1 described as an ordinary citizen speaking here.
2 I thank you for the opportunity to the
3 speak, but I would like to see more outreach and
4 publicity about these hearings. I would second the
5 League of Women Voters in saying that we need to have
6 information on websites. It's very difficult, from
7 what I understand, to find out information about this
8 process, or how it happens, how it works, how the
9 average citizen could have a voice in it.
10 I am particularly disturbed that this
11 meeting was held nine to one on a work day. It's
12 extremely difficult for me to get here, and most
13 people simply could not come. People work, as I know
14 you know. But that means people do not have a way to
15 have a voice in this.
16 I know that earlier today there was a
17 number of people here from each County. Partly,
18 that's because some of us did find out about the
19 hearing, made hundreds of phone calls to alert the
20 groups of people that is actually far more likely to
21 be aware of public events than most people, and most
22 of them had not heard about this hearing.
23 So, some of the people who are here
24 today, many earlier, are here because we called them
25 and let them know that this hearing was happening.
0139
1 There is no way for an average citizen, I think, to
2 understand what this hearing might be about, or how
3 you could testify, or if you could testify. And all
4 of that information could be available, and a lot of
5 people would actually have a voice in this process.
6 Thank you.
7 MR. DAVE KETCHUM, CITIZEN: Good
8 afternoon, gentlemen. I'm Dave Ketchum from Owego.
9 Thanks for finding your way to Binghamton.
10 About Tioga County, my neighbors in
11 Appalachia find it worth their money to make
12 Binghamton a local telephone call. In other words,
13 Tioga County is part of the Broome County's
14 community. I think you've been listening to this
15 several times. It is important.
16 On the other hand, I find myself paying
17 to make to Ithaca and Elmira local telephone calls.
18 In other words, in that corner of Tioga County,
19 Chemung County or Tompkins are neighbors. I can be
20 in the village, and I can walk to Chemung County.
21 Now, Waverly, like Spencer, makes a lot of sense to
22 be in the 31st C.D.
23 You've heard a lot from people from
24 there today. But they are making a good story that
25 they're a rural C.D.; it makes sense for them to stay
0140
1 that way. I suggest thinking about giving the 31st
2 maybe a third of Tioga County.
3 But other than that, it's been a good
4 argument for Broome County being all in one C.D.
5 Part of Tioga County ought to be with that. The
6 State Senate, I've mentioned, has out here in the
7 31st District, more of Chemung County. It's already
8 got part of the County.
9 If we go back to look at what you guys
10 did in 1990, I'd make two complaints: I hope you do
11 better. I'd look to Onondaga County. Whoever drew
12 the lines had great enthusiasm.
13 Go up near Buffalo, the 47th A.D. It
14 has one County and pieces of five other counties.
15 That seems sort of out of it.
16 I look into the book where all these
17 boundaries are written down. It goes on for pages
18 describing the spaghetti that you drew in your maps.
19 It seems like it could be done better. I look down
20 at New York City; several C.D.s across borough lines.
21 Back to the Assembly; two thoughts.
22 One thought would be: Has anybody considered
23 districting according to the New York State
24 Constitution, and then using weighted voting to keep
25 the Supreme Court off your back?
0141
1 Another thought would be: How about
2 breaking the State up into thirty Districts; each
3 District elects two Senators and five Assemblymen?
4 MR. PARMENT: I'd ask you one question:
5 You mentioned Spencer being a natural neighbor to
6 Chemung County, and Waverly being a natural neighbor
7 to --
8 MR. KETCHUM: To Broome.
9 MR. PARMENT: -- to Broome, I guess.
10 MR. KETCHUM: No, Waverly is next to
11 Chemung.
12 MR. PARMENT: Chemung.
13 MR. KETCHUM: Both of them are
14 neighbors to Chemung County.
15 MR. PARMENT: Okay. I drive that
16 stretch of highway every Monday morning on my way to
17 Albany. And that's about where we established the
18 65-mile-an-hour speed limit. Where do you think that
19 natural dividing boundary is between Elmira and
20 Binghamton?
21 MR. KETCHUM: All right. I think of
22 those of us in Owego, including North Valley, we're
23 all part of the Binghamton community. I come to
24 Binghamton often from Owego. I don't think many
25 people from Waverly head east. I'm just about
0142
1 certain that when they want to go to the city,
2 they're more likely to head to Elmira. And as I've
3 said for Spencer, I don't know about driving, but the
4 people in Spencer are willing to pay for Ithaca and
5 Elmira as local telephone calls, which suggests very
6 strongly that they consider them part of that
7 community.
8 MR. PARMENT: Okay. Thank you. That's
9 all.
10 FROM THE PANEL: From Assemblymen
11 Parment's question, it sounds to me like what you're
12 saying is the line between 127th District and 123rd
13 is about where it ought to be?
14 MR. KETCHUM: Roughly. I don't think
15 that there's any particular great place to draw the
16 line down the middle of Tioga County, but something
17 like that.
18 FROM THE PANEL: All right. Thanks
19 very much, sir. That concluded the list of people
20 that would wish to speak. We appreciate you being
21 here. And our next hearing will be in New York City;
22 you're all welcome to come down to Manhattan.
23 Thank you very much.
24 (Off-the-record discussion)
25 MS. PATTI HEDREN, CITIZEN: I'm sorry
0143
1 to call everybody back here.
2 FROM THE PANEL: Thank you.
3 MS. HEDREN: Okay. Well, I'm sorry to
4 call everybody back, but several of us did circle
5 that we wanted to speak when we came in, and I
6 promise to make this very short.
7 I'm Patti Hedren. I'm obviously from
8 the 31st District. I've been active in the
9 redistricting petition drive that's been going on.
10 And the only thing I would really like to say is I
11 already participate in a District that includes
12 Monroe County South. I'm in Steuben County. The 7th
13 Judicial District does include seven or eight
14 Counties. It starts with Monroe County, and it comes
15 south.
16 We are very rural in Steuben County.
17 We are the County that Corning, Inc. does headquarter
18 in, so we have the largest employer in the region in
19 our area. However, we are totally ignored with
20 anything having to do with the 7th Judicial District.
21 Steuben County, and including even Ontario County,
22 which is north of us, closer to Rochester, we're
23 basically ignored.
24 We were very fortunate in getting a
25 judge from Steuben County elected to the State
0144
1 Supreme Court. It is very unusual. Let me say how
2 important that was. Just people want to call it
3 Steuben, or Steuben Glen, but not a County. They
4 want to ignore the Southern Tier, the ruralness of
5 our area.
6 Steuben County is not alone. The 7th
7 Judicial District is not the only Judicial District
8 that has northern and southern Counties together.
9 And should this move into our Congressional
10 Districts, we're going to have the same problem. We
11 will be ignored. We'll be worse than redheaded
12 stepchildren. I'm a redhead, so I can say that. And
13 I know how it feels.
14 However, when you do look into
15 redistricting -- and I'm going to take your advice;
16 my Congressman's office has got software. We'll look
17 into this. I mean, not only myself. I'll get a
18 group of people together and see if we can't come up
19 with some of our own plans for the whole State. I
20 think it's a great idea to get everyone involved.
21 And I do believe that like character
22 needs to be considered, not just populations.
23 Population, granted, is one of the key things we have
24 to do. We also have to consider character. And I
25 would just like you to talk to other people that are
0145
1 already involved in the Districts that have northern
2 and southern counties grouped together.
3 MR. DOLLINGER: The number-one priority
4 is one person/one vote.
5 MS. HEDREN: Exactly. And we
6 understand that completely. But there's more than
7 one way besides going north and south.
8 MR. DOLLINGER: We need to consider
9 population --
10 MS. HEDREN: That's fine.
11 MR. DOLLINGER: -- and it makes sense.
12 MS. HEDREN: And it can certainly be
13 done.
14 MR. DOLLINGER: And it's not so that we
15 can not make you count. We request that citizens,
16 like yourself, speak concerning Southern Tier or
17 31st, whatever your number.
18 MS. HEDREN: No, we're in 29th
19 District.
20 MR. DOLLINGER: Right.
21 MS. HEDREN: Thank you.
22 Oh, yes, sir?
23 FROM THE PANEL: I had a question like
24 Senator Dollinger did. You mentioned that you did
25 get a judge elected from Steuben County. Was that an
0146
1 open competitive election or was that --?
2 MS. HEDREN: Yes, it was.
3 FROM THE PANEL: It was.
4 MS. HEDREN: And it was very hard,
5 because he's southern. And he's born and raised
6 right -- actually, he's my neighbor. He can probably
7 tell you. But he is my neighbor now. And it was an
8 open, competitive competition, and he had a judge
9 from Monroe County running against him. It was a
10 very tough election.
11 FROM THE PANEL: Well, that is
12 remarkable. In Chautauqua County, we're in 8th
13 Judicial District, I think it is, but the only way we
14 were able to get a judge in Chautauqua is if the
15 major parties came across endorsements. So, that's
16 why I asked the question about open competitive.
17 MS. HEDREN: Yeah.
18 FROM THE PANEL: So, this was an open
19 competitive race?
20 MS. HEDREN: And I believe the judge
21 from Monroe County running against him was an
22 immigrant. I believe he was. So, it was very open,
23 it was very competitive, it was very tough.
24 FROM THE PANEL: Okay. Thanks.
25 MS. HEDREN: Uh-huh.
0147
1 FROM THE PANEL: I just want to
2 comment: I think your point about the 7th Judicial
3 District is well taken, but as someone who also lives
4 in that District. Remember, we have a flexibility
5 there that we don't have in the Congressional
6 reapportionment, primarily the Senate and the
7 Assembly, and that is we can create local judges,
8 Supreme Court judges, so that there's a way it
9 doesn't effect. I just wouldn't want anybody to
10 leave here thinking that we as a State can somehow
11 change or shortchange the system of justice in
12 Steuben County. We have judges there; we have
13 Supreme Court judges there, and certainly we have 7th
14 Judicial District judges who occasionally travel the
15 circuit in Steuben County to do the job, not just --.
16 MS. HEDREN: And they do a wonderful
17 job.
18 FROM THE PANEL: Right. I think your
19 point is well-taken from the point of view of
20 electing someone who reflects the character of your
21 community and how difficult that would be. I would
22 suggest that that's always going to be difficult if
23 you're in a District that has a 1,300,000 people and
24 your County has 50 or 60,000, because people tend to
25 vote for people they know, and in Steuben County you
0148
1 know it's a different media market; it's just more
2 difficult.
3 I don't mean to minimize the
4 difficulties of that, but any time you have a
5 District that big, any small community anywhere in it
6 is always going to feel it's difficult for their
7 persons to get elected. I always countered that by
8 reminding everybody that Barton Conway (phonetic
9 spelling) of Alexander, New York, with about 600
10 people in it, represented a Congressional District
11 throughout Upstate New York, including a major
12 portion of the city of Rochester. So, again, the
13 rural person actually comes to represent the
14 suburban/urban areas.
15 MS. HEDREN: Thank you for that
16 question.
17 FROM THE PANEL: Just a suggestion, and
18 I appreciate your willingness to go try to draw the
19 Districts. Here's a problem: Start with the 31st.
20 Take a District, add the 91,000 people that that
21 District needs without taking it away from the 31st.
22 And then move to the 29th, which will possibly, if
23 you take all 91 from that, then they'll need 175,000.
24 Do that without -- I guess you're going to take all
25 that from the 27th, which would leave 27th then being
0149
1 180,000, and give 27th 180,000 without taking it from
2 the 31st. That's the nature of the problem.
3 MS. HEDREN: We understand that. We
4 understand that. That's why I think it's going to be
5 good that you've asked for input from the public to
6 get everybody involved.
7 FROM THE PANEL: Good luck.
8 MS. HEDREN: Thank you. Good luck to
9 you guys too. Thank you.
10 MS. EILEEN HAMLIN, CITIZEN: My name is
11 Eileen Hamlin (phonetic spelling); I'm from Kirkwood,
12 New York. I am on the Board of Citizen Action of New
13 York, and also a committee person for Working
14 Families Party in this area.
15 Our concerns are those of issues. Is
16 our voice going to be heard under your new regime?
17 We have a Congressman now in this area that we are
18 very fond of who supports our issues. He supports
19 issues related to health care, to public education,
20 and to workers' rights.
21 We are very concerned that that
22 experienced voice in Washington be kept. I would
23 lift up to you again the point that incumbency does
24 matter. You know very well incumbency does matter in
25 Washington D.C. You know very well that it's very
0150
1 important to have people in committees in Washington
2 so that the voice of the entire State is heard.
3 And Congressman Hinchey certainly has
4 committee assignments, such as Appropriation, where
5 he has a very strong voice for the State of New York,
6 as well as his voice for this District.
7 And particularly, with regard to the
8 health care issues, we are very much concerned in
9 this District that our issue supporting prescription
10 drugs for seniors under Medicare is something that
11 Congressman Hinchey supports. He supports advocating
12 for access to affordable health care for everyone.
13 He supports public education, and he supports
14 appropriate minimum wages and livable wages for
15 workers.
16 So, I would urge you to consider the
17 incumbency issue. You know, as you draw these lines,
18 that's all very well and good, and I know you have to
19 draw them as you draw them. I accept that. But I
20 think you can take into consideration other factors,
21 such as those you have heard here this morning from
22 folks in the 31st and in Hinchey's.
23 Thank you very much for being here, and
24 giving us a chance to speak.
25 FROM THE PANEL: May I just ask one
0151
1 question? It's not meant to be provocative --
2 MS. HAMLIN: Yes.
3 FROM THE PANEL: -- in its nature, but
4 you can't avoid it. You're a committee person in --
5 MS. HAMLIN: Yes.
6 FROM THE PANEL: -- one of New York's
7 eight major parties -- seven major parties, the
8 Working Families Party?
9 MS. HAMLIN: Yes, right. We're number
10 four, I think.
11 FROM THE PANEL: Pardon me?
12 MS. HAMLIN: We're number four, I
13 think.
14 FROM THE PANEL: Did Congressman
15 Hinchey have your line?
16 MS. HAMLIN: He did have our line; yes.
17 FROM THE PANEL: I assume you're
18 answering my question, but I'm going to ask it
19 anyway: Would you then favor a process in which you
20 and I were both prohibited from participating in the
21 redistricting because we were members of, you know,
22 partisan?
23 MS. HAMLIN: I would not favor that,
24 because I think that those of us who work in the
25 political arena are perhaps more knowledgeable than
0152
1 most citizens, and we've given a lot of thought to
2 it. So, I think our voice should be heard.
3 FROM THE PANEL: Thank you.
4 FROM THE PANEL: All right. I just
5 want to make one point. Your point about Congressman
6 Hinchey, which I understand the importance of
7 incumbency, but there is another way to look at it.
8 In 1992, incumbency was the value that had been used
9 to draw Districts. There would be no Congressman
10 Hinchey, because he wasn't Congressman at the time.
11 There would be Congressman Frank Horton, who is from
12 my neck of the woods, who's been in Congress for
13 twenty-eight years, whose District because of the
14 constraints that Senator Skelos talked about, there
15 were Districts that had to be drawn because we lost
16 three seats, and we're losing two now.
17 And I understand your point about
18 incumbency. But tomorrow's rookie is the incumbent
19 in 2012. I understand we have to balance our needs,
20 but the point we now make, and Senator Skelos made,
21 and I think we just need to keep in mind, is that
22 we're here to draw District lines. We understand we
23 did that with incumbency in which people have been
24 elected, people have expressed their views, people
25 won elections. But our job is to draw District lines
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1 that incumbency is a factor, but it's not --.
2 MS. HAMLIN: Yes, I understand it is a
3 factor, but I want you to consider it. I did not
4 want it to be --.
5 FROM THE PANEL: I think it's safe to
6 say that that will clearly be a part of our --
7 MS. HAMLIN: Good.
8 FROM THE PANEL: -- considerations.
9 MS. HAMLIN: I'm glad to hear that.
10 Thank you.
11 FROM THE PANEL: Would anybody else
12 like to be heard? Thank you very much.
13 (Off-the-record discussion)
14 MR. JOHN BRADY, CITIZEN: My name is
15 Brady, John Brady. I'm a retired engineering
16 programmer. And I'm pushing a radical idea; that
17 your job would be done by computer programmers. This
18 would eliminate all this gerrymandering.
19 The Census Bureau is devising a census
20 track, and they'll completely cover the State. Now,
21 what you need to do is you need a program. Pick 29
22 starting points, base points, and then these will all
23 have approximately the same population, but not
24 quite, and appropriate State seats. The least
25 population adds one of his neighbors. Each District
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1 adds a list of its neighbors, and then, again, you
2 take the one with the least population after this,
3 and he add one of his neighbors until they meet.
4 Now, when they meet, and there's some
5 that are not yet taken up, now you have to take back
6 one of the Districts from somebody that's -- from a
7 block that's not taken yet. But this program could
8 be worked out to divide the State into almost exactly
9 equal population, be completely nonpolitical, and
10 there would be no more gerrymandering.
11 Now, everybody wants to push for their
12 own Congressman to keep his District. I personally
13 believe that Hinchey has done a good enough job in
14 U.S. Congress that he could win almost any District.
15 He'll pick his District after the Districts have been
16 allocated and running. Anybody can run in whatever
17 District he wants.
18 This is a fair, nonpartisan,
19 nonpolitical solution.
20 FROM THE PANEL: Thank you.
21 Thank you everyone.
22 (The hearing concluded.)
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1
2 I, Judith Spriggs, do hereby certify that the
3 foregoing was taken by me, in the cause, at the time
4 and place, and as stated in the caption hereto, at
5 Page 1 hereof; that the foregoing typewritten
6 transcription, consisting of pages number 1 to 154,
7 inclusive, is a true record prepared by me and
8 completed by Associated Reporters Int'l., Inc. from
9 materials provided by me.
10 ________________________________
11 Judith Spriggs, Reporter
12 _________________Date
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