6
1 P R O C E E D I N G S
2 SENATOR SKELOS: Good morning. Could
3 we please start the meeting?
4 I would like to welcome you to the
5 Legislative Task Force on Demographic
6 Research and Reapportionment, the eleventh
7 public hearing throughout our great State of
8 New York.
9 My name is State Senator Dean Skelos.
10 I am Co-Chair of the Task Force. My
11 Co-Chair on my right is Assemblyman William
12 Parment. Senator Dollinger to my left;
13 Assemblyman Chris Ortloff and Mr. Vincent
14 Bruy and Mr. Roman Hedges.
15 The purpose of this hearing is to
16 obtain input from the general public on the
17 wide range of issues impacting our state's
18 process in drawing Congressional State
19 Senate and State Assembly district lines.
20 Of course we will take into account
21 your testimony as we will the federal
22 requirements, state requirements in order to
23 have a fair and effective redistricting in
24 the State of New York.
.7
1 I would ask if I could that each person
2 who has asked to testify, try to keep their
3 testimony to about five minutes. I note
4 that the meeting room here is not air
5 conditioned and as the day moves on, the
6 room will get probably hotter.
7 So, again, if you can keep the
8 testimony to five minutes, I certainly would
9 appreciate that as would the members of the
10 Task Force, although nobody will be cut off.
11 Bill.
12 ASSEMBLYMAN PARMENT: Thank you,
13 Senator and welcome to our hearing. The
14 purpose is to take testimony from the public
15 regarding their desires in regard to
16 Congressional district lines in New York
17 State, the State Senate lines and the State
18 Assembly lines. This Task Force is created
19 by State Law. The appointments to the Task
20 Force are made by the majority leader of the
21 State Senate, the speaker of the State
22 Assembly, the minority leader of the State
23 Senate and the minority leader of the State
24 Assembly.
.8
1 This Task Force is one of the longest
2 organized Task Forces in the nation that
3 considers these types of problems and we
4 have endeavored to take testimony across
5 this state. This is our eleventh public
6 hearing. We will use that public hearing
7 data in trying to adjust the various
8 legislative district boundaries to conform
9 with the one-man/one-vote principle that has
10 been enunciated by the courts and the US
11 Constitution, the State Constitution,
12 various other statutes including the Voting
13 Rights Act of 1965.
14 We look forward to your testimony. We
15 hope that we will be able to, when
16 completed, to produce a product that will be
17 well received by the public in New York
18 State and of course well received by the
19 courts when we expect to wind up.
20 SENATOR SKELOS: I would like to
21 mention some of the public officials that
22 are here. Congressman Amo Houghton is here
23 with his Team 31. I would like to
24 acknowledge the presence of Senator Pat
.9
1 McGee and I saw Senator George Maziarz come
2 in. We certainly welcome him.
3 ASSEMBLYMAN PARMENT: And I did see
4 Assemblyman Bill Hoyt here -- Sam Hoyt,
5 sorry and Dick Smith. I'm sure Sam would
6 not be offended by being confused with his
7 father who was also a good friend of mine.
8 SENATOR SKELOS: Senator Dollinger.
9 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Thank you, Mr.
10 Chairman. I will be brief. First of all,
11 it's great to see the Team 31 T-shirts again
12 populating the room. This is probably the
13 shortest distance you have had to come. It
14 was the member and I can't see that -- yes I
15 can, who showed up in I think all of the
16 five boroughs in New York wearing his Team
17 31 T-shirt. He ought to get some kind of
18 award on this, the tenth hearing that he has
19 trekked to.
20 I look forward to the testimony today.
21 I think that our hope that both the
22 testimony that you are going to give and the
23 questions that we might ask will give you a
24 concept of how difficult the task is that we
.10
1 face, especially with respect to the
2 Congressional lines in that in our
3 apportionment of Congressional seats with
4 respect to the other states in this nation,
5 we only have 29 seats and I have said this
6 before, there will never be a Team 31 again
7 in New York probably. There will be maybe a
8 Team 29 that will have to include a major
9 portion of the southern tier and other
10 places but that is clearly the difficult
11 task that we face, one that this Task Force
12 has taken on before when we shrunk from 34
13 to 31 and now we have to shrink from 31 to
14 29.
15 So, we are here to talk about
16 communities of interest in the Western New
17 York region. I look forward to the
18 testimony and let's get going if we can.
19 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. Ortloff.
20 ASSEMBLYMAN ORTLOFF: Thank you, Mr.
21 Chairman. Sam, this is your district we are
22 in, is it not? Assemblyman Parment, so the
23 record is clear, your dad reminds me that
24 the last time I was in this room was at a
.11
1 committee meeting and I served with him. He
2 was chair and that was some years ago and
3 it's nice to see you and think of your dad
4 again so fondly.
5 I want to note that we know New York is
6 a large state and that's part of the degree
7 of difficulty of the Task Force always has.
8 I come from Plattsburgh, the far
9 northeastern corner of the state and the
10 remark to the Co-Chair a minute ago, this
11 was the first hearing that we have had where
12 I have a longer drive home than Bill
13 Parment.
14 So, think of me as we think of you
15 Western New Yorkers coming home from Albany.
16 New York is a large state, 18 plus
17 million people but like every state, it's
18 made of small communities where people know
19 their neighbors, their schools, their post
20 offices, their shops. They know their
21 political institutions and they have found
22 their way in the demographic process to make
23 themselves and their community politically
24 viable, have political clout to use the
.12
1 often hackneyed phrase.
2 The job of this Task Force as it is in
3 all 50 states, is to redistrict the State
4 Legislative and Congressional districts in a
5 way that if we are successful in this
6 difficult task, each and every community
7 among those thousands and thousands of small
8 communities in this big state will have
9 their Constitutional right to choose their
10 own representatives.
11 Drawing of district lines can make that
12 easier or make it more difficult but that is
13 our objective and as we hear your testimony
14 today, we would all be most appreciative if
15 you would guide us in helping us to
16 understand what those communities are, where
17 they are, what the geographic boundaries are
18 and what makes the communities. That will
19 help us immeasurably and with that said, I
20 would look forward with eagerness to hearing
21 what you have to say.
22 SENATOR SKELOS: Thank you very much.
23 Our first speaker is the Honorable
24 Patricia K. McGee, Senator of the 56th
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1 Senatorial District.
2 SENATOR McGEE: Thank you very much.
3 I want to thank you very much, the
4 Co-Chairs of the Legislative Task Force on
5 Demographic Research and Reapportionment for
6 the opportunity to testify today on a
7 subject that has great significance to the
8 people of the southern tier in New York
9 State.
10 I am here to speak in support of saving
11 the 31st Congressional District and Senator
12 Dollinger, you are absolutely correct, we
13 have 31 and 29, the district that I speak
14 to.
15 The results of the 200 census have
16 confirmed what has long been anticipated,
17 that New York State's loss of population
18 will require the loss of two existing seats
19 in New York's delegation to the US House of
20 Representatives.
21 The State Legislature, with the
22 assistance and guidance of the Task Force,
23 has the unenviable task of deciding how
24 districts will be reconfigured to accomplish
.14
1 this reduction.
2 Speculation already has begun in the
3 media about which districts will be lost and
4 the methodologies, both analytical and
5 political, that will be employed to make
6 these difficult decisions.
7 I am pleased to have this opportunity
8 as an elected official who has represented
9 part of this district in the State
10 Legislature for the last 15 years, to
11 discuss the reasons why the 31st District
12 should remain intact.
13 The 31st District is a district of
14 equals. The counties which comprise the
15 district, although somewhat different in
16 size, are very equal in most other ways:
17 Rural and primarily agricultural in nature
18 and heritage, rich in natural resources,
19 similar economically in types of industries
20 and jobs, with an increasing reliance on
21 tourism and abundant recreational
22 activities, equal in transportation and
23 technological infrastructure and similar in
24 history and culture.
.15
1 If the 31st District were dissolved and
2 the counties, cities, towns and villages
3 which comprise it were scattered among other
4 districts, more than just our sense of
5 community, as important is that is, would be
6 lost. Concerns about becoming part of a
7 district dominated by urban or suburban
8 interests are very real for rural residents,
9 particularly when the issue is competition
10 for federal transportation or waste water
11 treatment funding.
12 The communities within the 31st
13 District have done through some very
14 difficult economic times over the past
15 several years and it's not easy for rural
16 areas to rebound from these troubles but the
17 residents and local leaders of these
18 communities are pretty resilient and in each
19 county their economic development
20 initiatives are beginning to be successful.
21 Even though federal funding is not a
22 major part of the initiatives, the
23 uncertainties that accompany a change in
24 governmental structure would not be helpful
.16
1 to these efforts, which are so vital to our
2 economic future.
3 This commonality within the 31st
4 District is very important to the residents
5 of this area.
6 Over the years the district has seen
7 many changes, changes in population,
8 economics and demographics. What hasn't
9 changed is this community's values, beliefs,
10 spirit and sense of worth.
11 If the 31st District were eliminated,
12 not only would we lose this commonality but
13 we would also face the possibility of losing
14 a sense of who we are. We are a people tied
15 together with common goals, values, economic
16 concerns uniquely reflective of the southern
17 tier. Our rural cultural isn't similar to
18 the culture of those in our cities to the
19 north and the east. Many people feel that
20 our problems, concerns and issues would be
21 overlooked if we were drawn in a district of
22 larger metropolitan areas.
23 The concerns that we have might often
24 be overshadowed if we were included in a
.17
1 district dominated by an urban area like
2 Buffalo, Rochester or Syracuse.
3 We have seen examples of where rural
4 area concerns are represented when large
5 rural areas are restricted to be included in
6 metropolitan areas and thus by the
7 one-person, one-vote principle commonly
8 accepted in American politics, it seems to
9 place less value on the concerns of the
10 rural resident into a centralized population
11 in a metropolitan center.
12 The Task Force has a difficult task
13 ahead in making recommendations for the
14 reapportionment of all State Legislature and
15 Congressional districts. No one likes
16 change and no one wants to have their
17 district dissolved. These are compelling
18 and there are compelling reasons to keep the
19 31st Congressional District intact and I
20 know that you will give them careful
21 consideration.
22 I would of course be remiss if I didn't
23 also mention the fact that there is a 56th
24 Senatorial District which is totally
.18
1 included in the 31st Congressional District
2 with the exception of Livingston County.
3 So, I do want to say, treat the
4 Senatorial Districts carefully and say thank
5 you again for providing me the opportunity
6 to comment on this crucial issue. Thank
7 you.
8 SENATOR SKELOS: Thank you very much,
9 Senator McGee. Are there any questions?
10 ASSEMBLYMAN PARMENT: I'm going to
11 put you on the spot a little bit.
12 SENATOR McGEE: You do that frequently,
13 Bill.
14 SENATOR SKELOS: In part because you
15 will be called up on at some time in the
16 future to vote upon this plan.
17 SENATOR McGEE: Yes, I will.
18 ASSEMBLYMAN PARMENT: Have you given
19 thought to what alterations to the
20 Congressional District boundaries you would
21 make in order to capture, if you will an
22 additional 79,000 persons necessary to meet
23 the one-person/one-vote requirement?
24 SENATOR McGEE: Indeed I have and I
.19
1 believe that if you look at the
2 Congressional District on the map, you will
3 find that the one side of us is bounded by
4 Pennsylvania and the bottom side of us is
5 bounded by Pennsylvania. You representing
6 Chautauqua County realize that.
7 So, there is no place to go to the west
8 and I suspect there's no place you can go to
9 the south unless Pennsylvania wishes to
10 become a part of New York State.
11 So, one would look at either going
12 north or east. Logically in following the
13 argument that I have used in preparation for
14 my remarks it would indicate that the best
15 way to go to is to the east because that
16 does keep a thread, as a matter of fact I-86
17 and 17 runs through that district as a
18 thread and if you want to actually use a
19 physical thread, that runs through that
20 district and I would suggest that if I were
21 to have my say in this, that the 31st
22 Congressional District, whatever number it
23 becomes, would in fact go to the east.
24 ASSEMBLYMAN PARMENT: Thank you.
.20
1 SENATOR McGEE: You are welcome.
2 SENATOR SKELOS: Thank you. Senator
3 Dollinger.
4 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Assemblyman
5 Parment kind of stole my question but let me
6 just see if I can sort of trace this. The
7 two choices, Senator, are to either move
8 further east as you have described your
9 preference or to move further north. I note
10 that your Senate district includes portions
11 of Livingston County.
12 SENATOR McGEE: That is correct. I
13 mentioned that.
14 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Right and you
15 have got Nunday and Portage, Dansville,
16 Sparta, Springville. My question is, if you
17 go further north in Livingston County to
18 Geneseo and Lima and the other communities,
19 we are not in as you described it, that big
20 city environment that might, I think as you
21 again and not again to characterize your
22 testimony but you have said that the danger
23 of this district being assimilated into a
24 city is that will in essence divide the
.21
1 loyalties of whoever represents them but my
2 question is, if you moved up into, the more
3 northern portion of Livingston County, those
4 areas of Geneseo, again a smaller community
5 that I think has a lot in common with the
6 southern tier, do we accomplish that same
7 goal, in essence, if we picked a county like
8 Livingston and just moved north there but
9 didn't get to the border of Monroe County
10 which might as you described it, change the
11 allegiance of the member from that district?
12 SENATOR McGEE: Certainly you bring up
13 a very valid point and that is something
14 that could be looked at. I still would say
15 that it's better to have the 31st
16 Congressional District go right along the
17 southern tier, the bottom of the southern
18 tier because again it would keep the
19 counties intact. I for one like to see
20 counties remain intact in any kind of a
21 district. Splitting of counties is not
22 necessarily I think a good idea.
23 So, again, I think that would reinforce
24 my position of the fact of going east.
.22
1 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Okay and just a
2 final question: Does the fact that the
3 Congress person might live on one end or the
4 other, for example I know Congressman
5 Houghton is here but if in the future a
6 Congress person were elected from Fredonia
7 for example, that Congress person might be
8 as far as 250 miles away from the other end
9 of the district. Does that, I mean the fact
10 that it's going to be so long on a linear
11 basis, again, does that create a problem
12 that somebody in this district might be 250
13 miles away from -- I would abide by you,
14 it's your judgment, Senator or Assemblyman
15 Parment but I assume it's 200 miles,
16 virtually four or five hours away from where
17 your Congressman lives. Does that create a
18 problem?
19 SENATOR McGEE: I really don't think
20 that it does because I represent probably
21 one of the largest geographical areas in the
22 Senate. I would suspect that moving from
23 one end of my district to the other in one
24 drive takes me approximately, I would say
.23
1 about two and a half to three hours. So, I
2 don't think so.
3 I think the way to do that is the way
4 the Congressman has done it, has established
5 satellite offices, if you will and has hours
6 in other places where there is not a
7 satellite office and he remains in contact,
8 in constant contact with his people and I
9 think that can be done if we enlarge or
10 elongate that district. I think that it can
11 be handled. I don't think there's a problem
12 or issue in it.
13 I happen to live in the middle of my
14 Senate district which makes it easier
15 because I can go all different ways but I
16 also can go on the I-86, 17 which again is a
17 common thread that goes through the Senate
18 district and the Congressional.
19 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Thank you.
20 SENATOR McGEE: You are welcome.
21 SENATOR SKELOS: Any other questions?
22 Thank you, Senator McGee.
23 SENATOR McGEE: Thank you.
24 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. Blair Horner,
.24
1 Legislative Director of NYPIRG.
2 MR. HORNER: Good morning. My name
3 is Blair Horner. I am NYPIRG's Legislative
4 Director and before I start the testimony, I
5 assume you have received copies of it.
6 There's a lot of pages to it and I'm not
7 planning to read it all but I will just
8 mention what's in it.
9 The first four pages are the testimony.
10 After that is a sample map that NYPIRG has
11 created looking at different areas of the
12 state and you can see some of the work we
13 have done. After that is a series of pages
14 primarily from California and Iowa about
15 information they provided citizens in their
16 state. The last two pages are looking at
17 some campaign finance reforms that we have
18 which is essentially an outline of what I am
19 going to talk about.
20 Thank you for the opportunity to
21 testify. NYPIRG as you know has been
22 monitoring the redistricting process and is
23 keenly interested in both the procedures and
24 the ultimate product of your deliberations.
.25
1 My testimony is divided into two
2 categories of recommendations. The first
3 area is NYPIRG's recommendations to you as
4 members of the redistricting Task Force and
5 the second is addressed more specifically to
6 the State Law makers on the panel.
7 The first part: NYPIRG is deeply
8 disappointed with the efforts so far of the
9 Task Force to educate and involve the public
10 in the redistricting process. The Task
11 Force has been funded every year since the
12 last redistricting effort and yet, other
13 than holding and publicizing these hearings,
14 there has been virtually no effort to make
15 the redistricting process easily understood
16 and accessible to the public. You have
17 pledged to create a website. We think
18 that's good but that's something that should
19 have been done a long time ago and in the
20 testimony I go over some recommendations
21 that are in there.
22 Recently NYPIRG examined the state
23 redistricting Internet sites from the
24 National Conference of State Legislators and
.26
1 found that 33 states now have websites
2 offering redistricting information to the
3 state.
4 Now, some of those states don't offer a
5 lot but all of them offer more than New York
6 and in fact New York, in using the web with
7 the most sleuth like talents that they have
8 to find the notice of this hearing.
9 So, we have tried to fill the public
10 information vacuum and produce our own
11 analyses and published information on our
12 own website which is mentioned in the
13 testimony and we believe that if we can do
14 it with our limited resources, you should be
15 able to accomplish at least that much.
16 So, NYPIRG recommends to aggressively
17 reach out to the public and engage them in
18 the redistricting effort by, one, creating a
19 website as quickly as possible. We urge
20 that the States of California and Iowa
21 redistricting models and we have included
22 some web page on that.
23 Number two, appointing a nonpartisan
24 citizen advisory group to help you reach out
.27
1 to the public. So we believe that that
2 would help you in terms of developing your
3 public education efforts to get the public
4 more involved in the redistricting process.
5 We urge that you announce your hearing
6 schedule on your proposed redistricting
7 lines and the enabling legislation well in
8 advance so that the public can gear
9 themselves to the hearings as well as if you
10 propose legislation, do it early so that the
11 people have time to digest it and comment on
12 it.
13 Lastly, ensuring transparency. We
14 strongly urge you to make available to the
15 public all the redistricting comments and
16 recommendations, including recommendations
17 made by law makers and the political
18 parties. We believe there should be a ban
19 on considering any redistricting information
20 that you are not going to make available to
21 the public.
22 The second category of recommendations
23 to the law makers, we urge you to support
24 redistricting and campaign finance reforms.
.28
1 The redistricting process is not just about
2 educating the public, it's most importantly
3 about how citizens will be represented in
4 our own state democracy. We think that New
5 York State's legislative races are
6 extraordinarily uncompetitive. Incumbents
7 get elected at a staggering rate. Over the
8 past 20 years, only 25 incumbents have been
9 beaten in the general elections. In good
10 economic times and bad, changes in
11 administrations, incumbents overwhelmingly
12 win.
13 In addition, the margin of victory is
14 enormous. In November, 2000, the average
15 percentage margin of victory for state
16 legislative candidates was a whopping 60
17 percent.
18 Now, one of the reasons we believe for
19 the races being so incredibly one-sided is
20 because of previous redistricting. Comments
21 in my testimony, I go over some breakdown in
22 numbers but we found that roughly using our
23 own standard, that roughly 24 state, total
24 State Assembly, Senate districts we view as
.29
1 competitive in terms of enrollments between
2 the major parties. We simply don't believe
3 that it's a credible argument that New York
4 is so politically divided that in only 24 of
5 the 211 districts are the major party
6 enrollments competitive.
7 I would be the first to admit that in
8 some parts of the state that one party has
9 enormous advantage over the other but 24 out
10 of 211 seems way too small to us.
11 So, we think that that lack of
12 competition should be enough to urge you to
13 change the process. When we travel around
14 the state and talk to people at the local
15 level, we think that the debate over local
16 redistricting strengthens our argument.
17 Complaints from redistricting we have heard
18 all across the state, from Duchess to
19 Onondaga, to Rochester and Erie, citizens
20 are complaining about how the power to
21 redistrict is being used as a political
22 weapon. Locally, for example, the fight
23 over Erie County's redistricting plan has
24 become so acrimonious that it has led to a
.30
1 lawsuit.
2 We believe that competitive elections
3 are the life blood of democracy. Only
4 through the clash of ideas can voters
5 intelligently understand complex public
6 policies and think through the implications.
7 We make two recommendations:
8 One is to minimize the role of partisan
9 considerations in redistricting by creating
10 a nonpartisan redistricting commission
11 within the context of the State
12 Constitution. We think you can do that
13 legislatively basically by having this
14 commission run by technocrats, not by
15 political appointees and I go through my
16 testimony with some of the examples of some
17 of the states.
18 Secondly we urge you to enact through
19 the law makers, meaningful campaign finance
20 reform. We think that that would also deal
21 with the lack of competition in races. We
22 thank the members of the Task Force who have
23 supported the Assembly Bill. We urge the
24 Senators to support Senator Goodman's Bill
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1 which creates a system of public financing
2 and we think helps level the playing field.
3 Those are my comments.
4 SENATOR SKELOS: Thank you. Any
5 questions?
6 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I have one.
7 Based on, I think you were at the hearing we
8 held in Albany and we talked about the
9 website and the information we would put on
10 that site. Based on that information which
11 as I understand is not up and running yet
12 but should be in the near future, is there
13 anything else that your organization would
14 need from us in order to be able to draw a
15 plan that comports with the constitutional
16 obligations, the voting rights obligations
17 and the state's constitutional requirements,
18 is there any additional information that we
19 haven't or we haven't shown an intention to
20 put before the public that we would actually
21 need to get into your hands?
22 MR. HORNER: Actually, ironically,
23 our technical staff are meeting with your
24 technical staff right now in New York City
.32
1 to go over and flesh out, if you will that
2 memorandum. We have not had an opportunity
3 yet to meet with them. Clearly we are as
4 much as possible trying to stay on top of
5 that but we are not going to be drawing
6 lines on our own. We are going to be just
7 reacting to what you folks put up.
8 So, I think it would be premature of me
9 to give you specific technical details on
10 what we would like to see on the website.
11 We have had the conversation with your staff
12 and again we think that when we review the
13 ones that are available nationwide,
14 California and Iowa seem to be good models
15 to work towards in terms of what information
16 you put up but California in fact was even
17 superior to Iowa's but again, it would be
18 premature and we will get you those
19 comments, though, as soon as we get done
20 with our meeting today.
21 SENATOR DOLLINGER: And a second
22 question about access to information in the
23 hands of the Task Force. Are you aware of
24 anybody who has asked the Task Force for
.33
1 access to either the transcripts of our
2 hearings or the documents and letters that
3 we have received or information that we have
4 received and who have been denied access to
5 that information?
6 MR. HORNER: No.
7 SENATOR DOLLINGER: The only reason I
8 ask that is I don't know to what extent we
9 have established a protocol for the receipt
10 of a request and a response to a request but
11 I'm just not aware that we have, maybe
12 somebody up here on the panel might know but
13 I'm not aware of any instance in which
14 someone said, can I have a copy of testimony
15 given in Brooklyn or testimony given in
16 Staten Island where anybody has been
17 refused. I mean, at least my sense is that
18 we have been very open in giving people
19 copies of testimony and making transcripts
20 available and doing other things and I would
21 like that pattern to continue.
22 I'm also a realist and know that there
23 can be last-minute submissions that may
24 disproportionately affect the process and
.34
1 those should be made public. My point is
2 that if you become aware of any evidence
3 that you are having difficulty getting
4 information from this Task Force, I
5 certainly would ask you to bring that to my
6 attention and to the commission's attention.
7 MR. HORNER: Clearly we will. We are
8 not shy about that as you know. The main
9 thing is that the rubber will really start
10 hitting the road when you draft the lines
11 and we are getting comments on whatever way,
12 how the incumbents or the parties will react
13 to that. We think all that information
14 should be made as available as it can.
15 Clearly we believe the transparent process
16 would bolster public confidence in the work
17 that you do and certainly at the local level
18 where the process in some places I thought
19 was abysmal. One county, I met with people
20 in Duchess County who alleged it wasn't
21 there, that their public hearing on the
22 district lines, the maps weren't even made
23 available, just a description of the
24 districts. If that's an indication, the
.35
1 kind of things that people may see at the
2 state level, we think that is a mistake.
3 So, we think again the transparent
4 process bolsters support and confidence in
5 your deliberations and when you get closer
6 to making decisions, we think that that
7 should be made available.
8 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Again, consistent
9 with that I would just encourage you to,
10 after these meetings, whatever technical
11 data you need, if you are not confident that
12 you can draw constitutionally acceptable and
13 permissible plans that balance the factors
14 that we have to balance, if you don't have
15 the tools to do that, I mean, the whole
16 point of the website at least from my
17 perspective was that we would give the
18 public and groups such as yours the tools to
19 be able to do what we do and if for some
20 reason the information is deficient, I think
21 you should just let us know and certainly I
22 would be pushing for that, for more access
23 to that kind of information.
24 The only other thing, Mr. Chairman,
.36
1 just as a point of privilege, I would just
2 like to recognize my colleague Byron Brown
3 from Buffalo and Niagara Falls who is also
4 here, Senator Brown.
5 ASSEMBLYMAN PARMENT: You have
6 mentioned a couple of, in your presentation,
7 a lack of competitiveness in the extensive
8 degree of party enrollment overlay in the
9 Assembly and Senate District in New York
10 State. Do you have an idea where these
11 districts could be made more competitive?
12 MR. HORNER: We have not analyzed how
13 you would change your lines to make them
14 more competitive. We just believe in what
15 we are trying to make a point is that in
16 your deliberations, one of the primary goals
17 should be competitive districts and we will
18 gladly, you know, you come up with your
19 lines to the extent that we can, we would
20 gladly try to comment on what we perceive to
21 be the competitiveness of the district lines
22 that you draft but we have not looked at
23 previous districts other than to do the
24 board of elections, that information, the
.37
1 kind of district-by-district breakdown and
2 categorizing how close the enrollments are
3 between democrats and republicans.
4 ASSEMBLYMAN PARMENT: You have also
5 indicated to us that we should minimalize
6 the amount of political persuasion that we
7 put into this deliberative process. Do you
8 not see that inconsistent with your stated
9 goal of seeing districts more competitive?
10 MR. HORNER: No. The way as I have
11 observed over the years, the majority party
12 in each house has nearly virtual control
13 over how the district lines are drawn. One
14 of the issues that you folks should think
15 about is incumbency and the majority party
16 status, clearly others think that you do
17 too, that the political impact is great or
18 they wouldn't be our hiring lobbyist or
19 shifting campaign contributions into the
20 process in hopes of influencing district
21 lines.
22 So, we think again there is a state
23 constitutional issue here that says that you
24 folks, the Legislature ultimately decides
.38
1 this and so we are not arguing for
2 constitutional remedies or doing anything
3 about the district process but if you could
4 take the technical staff that you have and
5 give them nonpartisan, mandated, one goal
6 being an increase to the best you can and
7 increase in maximizing the number of
8 competitive districts, I think that would
9 end up with more competitive districts than
10 the process that we have done through
11 certainly in 1992 through the 1980s.
12 ASSEMBLYMAN PARMENT: I think you've
13 looked at my district and I think you
14 probably concluded that it's competitive.
15 MR. HORNER: Yes. There are some
16 like yours. Yours is one of them.
17 ASSEMBLYMAN PARMENT: Could you
18 conceive of a republican district being
19 drawn in the South Bronx?
20 MR. HORNER: Not off the top of my
21 head.
22 ASSEMBLYMAN PARMENT: Or a democratic
23 district in Steuben County?
24 MR. HORNER: You know, that would be
.39
1 hard.
2 ASSEMBLYMAN PARMENT: I would suspect
3 that would be difficult and I point that out
4 because I think that basically it speaks to
5 the issue of why some districts have such
6 overwhelming enrollment advantages for one
7 party or the other. The people in the
8 community have chosen to identify themselves
9 with one of the major parties or the other
10 and in respecting county boundaries and
11 municipal boundaries that exist and have
12 existed for the better part of 150 years, it
13 is very difficult to create districts that
14 don't have either republican overlays or
15 democratic overlays. I just point that out
16 because as you challenge the existing lines,
17 there is the implication that we have
18 deliberately decided to put all the
19 republicans in Steuben County and all the
20 democrats in the Bronx and we don't have
21 anything to do with that. The people there
22 choose for themselves what party they want
23 to associate with and the district
24 boundaries that we draw reflect the
.40
1 community interests that we find.
2 MR. HORNER: Well, I understand your
3 point and you have picked the kind of
4 quintessential examples of districts or
5 areas of the state where the enrollment
6 advantages are enormous. I would be the
7 first to admit it. I've worked with NYPIRG
8 a long time and I've traveled around the
9 state. I understand the differences but I
10 don't believe that only 24 out of 211
11 districts are truly competitive and that
12 that reflects the communities of the State
13 of New York. I think the number is higher
14 and we would gladly again do our best to
15 comment on what we perceive to be the
16 competitiveness of the district lines but
17 when we looked at the numbers, it was eight
18 State Senate districts that had enrollments
19 within 13,000 democratic versus republican
20 and there were the remainder, I guess 16
21 Assembly districts were within 5,000.
22 Now, 5,000 and 13,000 is actually
23 pretty big for an enrollment advantage but
24 nonetheless, that's the way we categorize
.41
1 the districts and I actually have a hard
2 time believing it's only those 24 areas of
3 the state that just happen to have those
4 kind of enrollments. I think there are
5 more.
6 SENATOR SKELOS: If I could follow up
7 on Assemblyman Parment, have you ever looked
8 at my district? Would you consider that
9 competitive?
10 MR. HORNER: I think Nassau County is
11 a fairly competitive area.
12 SENATOR SKELOS: So you would
13 consider my district competitive?
14 MR. HORNER: I don't remember the
15 enrollments so it's hard for me to say. I
16 think the south shore of Nassau though is
17 pretty strongly republican to my
18 recollection, although as you go further
19 west it becomes more democratic.
20 SENATOR SKELOS: Do you remember that
21 there was a democratic State Senator that I
22 lost to once when I first ran for office?
23 MR. HORNER: Yes, that's right.
24 SENATOR SKELOS: So would you then
.42
1 consider it competitive and that was after a
2 redistricting process?
3 MR. HORNER: Well, in terms of
4 enrollment, enrollment is not the only
5 indicator of competitiveness. I mean, you
6 have probably five Senate republicans that
7 have districts that are overwhelmingly
8 enrolled advantages for democrats. That's
9 what we talked about in campaign finance
10 too. However, 24 out of 211 districts seems
11 small to me in terms of the total.
12 SENATOR SKELOS: Just to go back to
13 mine, would you consider my district then
14 competitive, having been represented by a
15 democratic State Senator, the fact that I
16 lost to that democrat State Senator once and
17 after a redistricting process, would you
18 consider it competitive?
19 MR. HORNER: I would say again, I
20 don't remember the State Board of Election
21 enrollment numbers for your district but I
22 do think that redistricting lines alone,
23 certainly you could ask Senators Maltese,
24 Patavin, Goodman, district lines alone don't
.43
1 predetermine whether or not the district
2 ends up being competitive but my point was
3 that when you are looking at the enrollment,
4 that that should be a factor in trying to
5 have more districts with closer enrollments
6 than fewer.
7 SENATOR SKELOS: The only reason I'm
8 pointing that out is I consider my district
9 competitive, certainly the minority in the
10 Assembly and Senate considered it
11 competitive this past election and paid
12 attention to my race and just to point out
13 that I was co-chairman of the redistricting
14 ten years ago. So certainly if there was a
15 district that would be biased one way, it
16 would have been mine and yet it is a
17 competitive district.
18 So, I think this Task Force quite
19 honestly over the years has done an
20 admirable job in trying to balance the needs
21 of the people throughout the state, the
22 communities of interest and yes, even the
23 Supreme Court of the United States has said
24 that incumbency is something that can be
.44
1 taken into account in redistricting, that
2 it's not a dirty word that a person is an
3 incumbent and gets elected.
4 MR. HORNER: I'm not arguing that you
5 are doing anything illegal. I'm arguing
6 that as a goal of the Task Force, in
7 addition to all the other requirements you
8 have, that one of them should be to maximize
9 the number of districts with closer party
10 enrollments as compared to fewer. Again, I
11 can't remember your numbers but the second
12 part of our recommendation is campaign
13 finance reform and that is another way to
14 make this more competitive as well.
15 SENATOR SKELOS: Any further
16 questions?
17 ASSEMBLYMAN ORTLOFF: You do have a
18 list of the 24 districts that you regard as
19 competitive?
20 MR. HORNER: I can get it. I don't
21 have it in my testimony but I certainly have
22 it, yes.
23 ASSEMBLYMAN ORTLOFF: And I think we
24 are all raising this point because it's a
.45
1 rather sensitive point because the
2 implication, whether you intend it or not
3 and I don't believe you do, when such
4 reports and such news conferences and
5 statements are made, there's a clear
6 implication, I hear it from my constituency
7 who respond to articles about your
8 statements, that we are either doing
9 something wrong or we are somehow --
10 somebody is cheating the process of cheating
11 the public and I think we see a very
12 different view of that.
13 I asked you about my district because
14 you know about my district. Would you
15 regard my district as competitive?
16 MR. HORNER: Yes.
17 ASSEMBLYMAN ORTLOFF: Do you know
18 what my margin of victory was the last time?
19 MR. HORNER: No.
20 ASSEMBLYMAN ORTLOFF: 69 percent and
21 what was yours, Bill?
22 ASSEMBLYMAN PARMENT: 65.
23 ASSEMBLYMAN ORTLOFF: Now, on the one
24 hand your one analysis would make both our
.46
1 districts and I guess Senator Skelos' as
2 well, competitive, correct?
3 MR. HORNER: Well, certainly, again I
4 don't remember the census numbers but there
5 are districts, Senate districts in Nassau
6 and certainly they are competitive.
7 ASSEMBLYMAN ORTLOFF: And yet on your
8 other criteria, the election results, one
9 might say well neither of these districts is
10 competitive because you have chosen as a
11 criteria, the margin of victory. My
12 suggestion and I really am making this
13 because the media is in the room and many
14 people are involved in the process, are in
15 the room, is that to really get a handle on
16 the ability of communities to elect
17 representatives of their choice which is
18 really all our gaol, it seems to me that I
19 would invite you to do a maybe more
20 sophisticated analysis at a deeper level and
21 look at some of these other factors. I
22 think you are onto something and we
23 certainly benefit by objective groups such
24 as NYPIRG taking a look at the process.
.47
1 I would only ask that we have a
2 dialogue in public as we are doing here
3 today and try to illuminate the public
4 rather than lead to what I, with all due
5 respect, view as a simplistic approach and
6 perhaps not even good for democracy.
7 MR. HORNER: Well, one recommendation
8 is again, to make this as transparent a
9 process as possible and I mean, that's one
10 way to dispel any misconceptions that you
11 may think that they have, one way is to make
12 sure that everything that you do is
13 available to the public and open to the
14 public.
15 Secondly, though, over a 20-year
16 period, incumbents get beaten in a general
17 election is a pretty small percentage and I
18 would be the first to admit that if
19 incumbents do a great job, they deserve to
20 get reelected but when we looked at the
21 numbers, even in the districts where
22 incumbents retired, they were replaced far
23 more times than not by a member of their own
24 party and so, part of that is redistricting,
.48
1 part of that is campaign finance, part of it
2 is other stuff and I'm not arguing that
3 every incumbent should be beaten. I'm not
4 saying that at all. I'm saying that as far
5 as the members of this Task Force, district
6 lines, when you draw them, I urge you to
7 make a criteria, are we maximizing the
8 number of districts that have closer
9 enrollment advantages to make more
10 competitive races, that's all.
11 The second part of course is if you
12 want to really help, pass campaign finance
13 reform and help a great many challengers
14 actually run. That would make a difference
15 too.
16 SENATOR SKELOS: Any further
17 questions?
18 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I understand and
19 share your concern about competitiveness.
20 My question is, have you looked at the
21 competitiveness of the Congressional
22 districts in New York in the last ten years?
23 MR. HORNER: No but there have been
24 national newspapers that have and come up
.49
1 with, as I recall reading this information,
2 have come up with similar findings in terms
3 of reelection but I really have not looked
4 at it. We are primarily a state based
5 group.
6 SENATOR DOLLINGER: The only reason
7 why I think that may be instructive is that
8 we didn't draw those lines. Those were
9 drawn by a master appointed by the court and
10 were imposed on the State of New York and I
11 don't know to what extent that the factors
12 used by the masters by the court system,
13 certainly they were operating under the
14 same --
15 SENATOR SKELOS: I think I would have
16 to correct you on that, Senator Dollinger.
17 What happened in the last redistricting was,
18 Congressional, that there were a few loose
19 items within the City of New York that
20 leadership in the Legislature could not
21 reappoint and the court really just threw in
22 those very limited areas. The rest of the
23 plan was basically where the Legislature had
24 come together and agreed upon those
.50
1 Congressional districts. So there was no
2 change to the 31st Congressional District by
3 that master and there were minor changes and
4 ultimately the Legislature adopted that
5 plan.
6 SENATOR DOLLINGER: But the point I
7 was making, Senator Skelos, was that there
8 have been instances in the past where the
9 courts have been involved in some ways in
10 manipulating some of the district lines and
11 I think that that would be one of the -- if
12 as the claim is made that the districts
13 aren't competitive enough, to look at the
14 Congressional districts as well and perhaps
15 even at Congressional districts in other
16 states where we have had court-imposed plans
17 drawn by masters because that may give us
18 some insight as to what extent a neutral
19 drafter would create districts that might
20 have the same competitive disadvantage that
21 you are highlighting or asking us to avoid.
22 MR. HORNER: I don't know if the
23 courts actually considered competitiveness
24 as a factor. I do know that in some of the
.51
1 states that have a nonpartisan commission,
2 they tend to have more competitive
3 elections. Iowa is certainly one,
4 Washington certainly is. So, again, I'm not
5 arguing here that we have to overhaul the
6 system. I'm arguing, although, that it
7 would be fine with me. I'm arguing more
8 narrowly as members of the Task Force, to
9 make a component of the package that you are
10 looking at, how to maximize the number of
11 districts in terms of competitiveness.
12 SENATOR SKELOS: I think what we are
13 saying is that the 31st District, whatever
14 the number has been, has been represented by
15 Congressman Lundine, a democrat and it's now
16 represented by Congressman Houghton, a
17 republican and I dare say being right here
18 in the City of Buffalo, anybody that would
19 believe that Jack Quinn a republican would
20 be the Congressman.
21 So, I guess what we are saying is that
22 the people of the State of New York are very
23 bright and I think they make very good
24 decisions generally when it comes to
.52
1 elections.
2 MR. HORNER: I agree with you and I
3 certainly urge you to help them by including
4 as a package in your consideration, a
5 maximizing of the number of competitive
6 Assembly and Senate districts when you
7 configure your lines.
8 SENATOR SKELOS: Any other questions?
9 (No response.)
10 SENATOR SKELOS: Thank you, very much
11 for your time.
12 Mr. Peter McMann. Oh, he's not here
13 then, Tim Callan.
14 MR. CALLAN: Good morning. My name
15 is Tim Callan and I'm here representing
16 Congressman John LaFalce. Thank you members
17 of the Task Force for coming to Buffalo.
18 Chairman Parment, it's so good to see
19 you after so many years.
20 In the interest of time and you have so
21 many good people here to speak, I'm not
22 going to read the Congressman's remarks.
23 Copies of his remarks have been given to the
24 clerk for your consideration. I just wanted
.53
1 to thank you for coming today. We
2 appreciate your consideration and I'm happy
3 to answer any questions.
4 SENATOR SKELOS: Thank you, very
5 much. Congressman Amo Houghton.
6 CONGRESSMAN HOUGHTON: Thank you,
7 very much everybody. I appreciate being
8 here. I thought I was going to have to be
9 in Washington for the Patients Bill of
10 Rights but that has been put off a little
11 bit so I had an opportunity to fly up this
12 morning.
13 I thank you very much for your being
14 here and the great work that you are doing
15 but I also have to say I thank everybody
16 here from the fighting 31st.
17 You know, it's hard speaking at the
18 last session because I think everybody has
19 talked about all the key issues. I take
20 solace in the statement by my friend Henry
21 Hyde who got up in Congress at one time and
22 said, everything has to be said that's
23 already been said but hasn't been said by
24 everybody. So maybe you can understand my
.54
1 redundancy here.
2 When I started to work in Corning in
3 the early fifties, New York had 45
4 Congressional seats and California had 23
5 and you can see their tremendous flip and so
6 I think that what I'm trying to do is to
7 understand how long and how fast that
8 pendulum swings. I really believe that
9 there will be a 31st District some day
10 again. I would hope that we will come back
11 to 45 because things don't always go in one
12 direction, yet at the same time I think what
13 we have got to do is to devise the
14 atmosphere for the regrowth in that area and
15 I've always felt that, even when I was in
16 business, that the great growth of New York
17 State really should be from Binghamton on
18 west.
19 I don't mean to talk about New York
20 City because I'm sure there's tremendous
21 opportunities there but when I was growing
22 up, there was a little company called Halo
23 in Rochester and then there was Crouse Heins
24 in Syracuse and then there was Carrot and
.55
1 then there was IBM, big, big operations in
2 Binghamton and then Endicott Johnson and
3 General Electric had enormous opportunities
4 and employment in Schenectady, that's all
5 changed but I think that in its change we've
6 got to think through what the next 50 years
7 is going to be like rather than the past 50
8 years, that it's important to me to make
9 sure that I help in developing a frame of
10 mind so that we are not trying to recreate
11 the past but looking forward to a very
12 bright future.
13 I'm subjective about this. There isn't
14 anything I can do to disabuse you of that.
15 I was born in Corning in 1926 and I went to
16 school there, brought up my children there,
17 my four children were born there so I really
18 have a piece of my skin in this, as Bill
19 Parment knows, I mean, I really feel
20 strongly about this. So anything I say, I
21 think you have got to take in that context.
22 What I would like to do for just a
23 minute, though, is to talk a little bit
24 about the differences, statistically of our
.56
1 area versus what probably would be a
2 reconfigured area if this thing was
3 configured vertically rather than
4 horizontally and if you wouldn't mind, if
5 you would just let me do this, bear with me
6 a little bit, there are several differences.
7 One is the population difference; two
8 is the rural character difference, three is
9 the per capita income, four is the
10 concentration of manufacturing, five is
11 education and crime and the unemployment
12 level.
13 Our district is characterized by low
14 population density. We have 98 persons per
15 square mile. It's contrasted to Syracuse
16 and Rochester and Buffalo having about 863
17 persons per square mile, big, big
18 difference.
19 Farm employment is far different. The
20 average farm employment is about 3.4 percent
21 of our population, whereas in the larger
22 cities it's less than half.
23 The per capita incomes are slightly
24 different. There's a variation of about
.57
1 plus or minus ten percent on our per capita
2 income and they are significantly lower than
3 the larger cities.
4 There is a higher proportion of
5 manufacturing, strange as it may seem, in
6 the rural area than there is in the larger
7 cities. Also in terms of unemployment,
8 education and crime, crime, big, big, big
9 difference. For example, the crime rate per
10 100,000 people in Dunkirk, New York just
11 south of here is about 3,300 per 100,000 and
12 in Jamestown it's about 2,600. In Buffalo
13 it's about 6,000. So, it's two times that
14 and in terms of violent crime, it's about
15 ten times that.
16 Now, if you take a look at what I
17 assume will be a district dominated by those
18 three big areas, that the next largest city
19 in an area dominated by Buffalo would be ten
20 times smaller. I mean, Buffalo would be
21 that much larger than Jamestown. Rochester
22 would be 15 times larger than Olean.
23 Syracuse would be 14 times larger than
24 Corning.
.58
1 So, it seems to me that there is an
2 element of community of interest.
3 Now, I live in Corning. It's a very
4 exciting place, despite the fact that the
5 dot com and fiberoptics and Internet economy
6 is sitting on its back at this point, people
7 come to this area because they want to live
8 there. They don't want to be associated
9 with larger cities, as great as Buffalo is
10 and as great as Syracuse and Rochester are,
11 there is a certain characteristic about the
12 cities and we've got a lot of things I think
13 to think through with our positions in the
14 next wave.
15 We've got a thing called working
16 together in 2000 which takes a look at
17 sharing expenses in terms of tourism. We
18 have developed venture capital funds down
19 there. We have a thing called a ceramic
20 corridor which really is the counterpart of
21 silicon valley or of Austin, Texas, sort of
22 a research triangle. We have done enormous
23 things with Alfred University, Cornell
24 because they have terrific ceramic
.59
1 refractory technology.
2 I really don't think that Route 17 or
3 I-86 would have been possible in that area
4 if Stan Lundine hadn't really started that
5 because you have the Thruway here and there
6 is no necessity of bringing it down there.
7 I think that there is an opportunity
8 not only to have the best of both worlds,
9 have a place where people want to come and
10 live and exist and work. We have a
11 situation right across the street from me in
12 Corning where this person who runs this
13 chain of restaurants in Virginia, another
14 lady, his wife, runs a computer software
15 company in Ohio. They want to live in that
16 area and we are finding more and more people
17 wanting to come into it and the thing that I
18 hope for and I don't think it's just a
19 dream, is that if we can develop as we did
20 in 1996, the Telecommunications Act, we can
21 develop broad band technology so we have now
22 the highways of fiberoptics but if you can
23 get the off ramps, then we can, the people
24 can live in that area and they don't have to
.60
1 live in Buffalo or New York City or Tokyo or
2 London. They can live and work any place.
3 So, let's just sum up what I have to
4 say and this is a story of a man who lost
5 all of his money in the stock market and he
6 was madly in love with a girl and he went to
7 see her and he said honey, I lost all my
8 money and I just want to know, do you still
9 love me and she said, how can you possibly
10 ask that question? Of course I love you.
11 She said I'm going to miss you but I
12 absolutely love you.
13 I don't want this community to be
14 missed. So, I thank you very much.
15 SENATOR SKELOS: Thank you. Are
16 there any questions from the Task Force?
17 ASSEMBLYMAN PARMENT: Congressman,
18 first I would like to thank you for the
19 comparative data that you have introduced.
20 I believe that you are the first to
21 introduce this type of data and I believe
22 it's very helpful in the presentation
23 because it is quantifiable and it does give
24 statistical reference to the differences
.61
1 between our community and communities to the
2 north and I think that testimony is very
3 important.
4 So, I thank you for your testimony. We
5 certainly want to look in that direction and
6 basically it's opened my eyes to a direction
7 that we should be looking and that is, what
8 are the comparative differences between the
9 communities to the north and the 31st
10 Congressional District and I think you have
11 done a good job in presenting it. Thank
12 you.
13 CONGRESSMAN HOUGHTON: Thank you and
14 if I could just add just a bit, New York
15 City and Saratoga are in the same state, all
16 proud of New York State. We are hopeful
17 that we will come back and be the number one
18 state in the nation but there are vast
19 differences between New York, just to put a
20 fine point on it and so you have got to
21 consider who wants to live and who wants to
22 work and who wants to grow in that area
23 specifically if you look at the next 50
24 years. Thank you.
.62
1 SENATOR SKELOS: Senator Dollinger.
2 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Congressman, I
3 want to disagree with you on one piece of
4 what you said.
5 You said that you were intensively
6 subjective about this region but I want to
7 encourage you to take the statistical data
8 that you have described in your statement
9 and in response to Assemblyman Parment and
10 make that data, full data available to us
11 because that is the --
12 CONGRESSMAN HOUGHTON: I've got it in
13 a chart form.
14 SENATOR DOLLINGER: That is the
15 objective data that defines the community of
16 interest that so many people from Team 31
17 that have talked about and my question to
18 you is, we do not have, at least to my
19 knowledge, an intention to put that kind of
20 statistical data as you described it, per
21 capita income, density of population,
22 manufacturing, all those criteria that
23 objectify communities of interest. We at
24 this point I don't think have any intention
.63
1 to put that data up on our website but if we
2 were going to define districts using
3 objective criteria, it's those kinds of
4 criteria that as you have just described,
5 that would be helpful in defining a
6 community of interest, especially in the
7 broad areas of Western New York that you
8 described.
9 Would it be your suggestion that we
10 should make that data available to everyone
11 to allow them to objectify their community
12 of interest across the state?
13 CONGRESSMAN HOUGHTON: Well, Senator,
14 I don't know what you want. I don't know
15 the things that you are touching here but to
16 me it was very helpful because I can get up
17 and talk about my homeland and how I love
18 this area and I want to see it continue. I
19 want my grandchildren to be able to live
20 here but for you and for me looking at it
21 coldly, you have to have criteria like that
22 to make a decision.
23 SENATOR DOLLINGER: That's why I'm
24 going to take your suggestion to heart.
.64
1 First of all, I think all that analysis to
2 the extent that you can bring it to the Task
3 Force's attention, it becomes critically
4 important. I at least embrace that as one
5 of the tools we should have because for the
6 exact reason you talked about, the ability
7 to objectify our criteria in defining, does
8 that community run further north towards
9 Route 90 or does it run further east. I
10 have clearly heard a preference from
11 everybody on Team 31 that they would run it
12 further east but the ability to take that
13 objective data, per capita income,
14 population, density factors that you talked
15 about and see where that linkage goes, Tioga
16 and Tompkins County, counties on the far
17 eastern end of this Congressional district,
18 if they have a, let's say five or six or
19 seven criteria which they mirror those of
20 the rest of the 31st Congressional District,
21 then we have an objective basis to extend
22 that further east rather than going north
23 towards the bigger cities.
24 So, I want to commend you. I think
.65
1 Assemblyman Parment is absolutely correct
2 that this is the first time we have heard
3 somebody provide us with that data and I
4 think it's critically important and my hope
5 would be that eventually on our website we
6 will have that information available to
7 people across the state because we may find
8 that even in areas of the City of New York,
9 the same kind of criteria that you talk
10 about, per capita income, population
11 density, even though it all appears like New
12 York is all the same, we may find that in
13 different neighborhoods and communities, the
14 kind of objective factors that you have
15 utilized distinguish one specific region
16 from another and would suggest that these
17 are the objective foundations of a community
18 of interest that this Task Force ought to be
19 aware of and take into account in our
20 redistricting.
21 CONGRESSMAN HOUGHTON: Thank you. I
22 just -- I have one thing that I've got to
23 make sure that nobody thinks that I'm
24 denigrating the larger cities because I
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1 specifically remember as I think you do, so
2 many of us in 1972 when you had this
3 terrible flood and Hurricane Agnus and it
4 was places like Rochester that really came
5 and bailed us out. They were absolutely
6 terrific but I think I submit that
7 Jamestown, New York has more in common with
8 Elmira, New York than it has in Buffalo,
9 despite the differences.
10 SENATOR DOLLINGER: And at least what
11 I have heard has been not a derogation of
12 the cities from Team 31 or anyone in the
13 southern tier. I think we have heard is
14 that there is a special quality in the
15 southern tier that deserves to have a voice
16 in Congress that represents that special
17 character and quality. We have heard it
18 mostly on a subjective basis until today,
19 you have given us objective criteria for us
20 to do that.
21 So, I certainly don't interpret
22 anything that has been said as in any way
23 suggesting there's something wrong or
24 improper with the Western New York cities,
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1 Buffalo, Syracuse, Rochester. What I hear
2 is that there is a special character in the
3 southern tier that needs a voice in
4 Congress, that listens to their voice.
5 CONGRESSMAN HOUGHTON: Well, I think
6 you have put your finger on a very important
7 part. We can develop our economy. We can
8 change from dairy to viticulture. We can go
9 from making lanterns for railroads to
10 fiberoptics but we've got to have a voice.
11 That's what the word is.
12 SENATOR SKELOS: I just would like to
13 point out to Senator Dollinger that the
14 information you are talking about I'm
15 informed will not be available by the Census
16 Bureau to the Task Force for at least two to
17 three years.
18 Assemblyman Ortloff, I believe you had
19 a question.
20 ASSEMBLYMAN ORTLOFF: I just wanted
21 to thank you for your eliminating testimony.
22 Like my colleagues or as my colleagues, I
23 have learned a great deal and you suggested
24 a different direction that we ought to look
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1 in and I'm glad that Blair Horner is still
2 here because I think together with groups
3 like NYPIRG we certainly can. The more
4 objective data that we have to work with to
5 rationalize our decisions, the easier it's
6 going to be to avoid being accused of
7 arbitrary political decisions and I thank
8 you for that.
9 I only want to say also by way of
10 testimonial that we have enjoyed Team 31 at
11 each of the previous ten hearings and if
12 that was the overture, Congressman Houghton,
13 the show was well worth waiting for.
14 CONGRESSMAN HOUGHTON: Thank you,
15 very much.
16 SENATOR SKELOS: Our next speaker is
17 Heidi Nauleau.
18 MS. NAULEAU: Hi. I'm Heidi Nauleau
19 and I'm here today not only as a citizen of
20 the 31st District but as a business owner
21 and as the fourth generation in my family to
22 be president of the Manufacturer's
23 Association.
24 Now, you have heard a little bit more
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1 objective data and I understand that that's
2 very useful but my purpose in being here is
3 telling you what it feels like to be a
4 somewhat political animal. I'm quite
5 involved in politics in our county and I
6 have been involved in state elections as
7 well as federal elections.
8 You have heard and I will support the
9 fact that the southern tier is a group of
10 small, rural towns and cities that have a
11 commonality and that commonality is very
12 important to us. We now enjoy the
13 visitations of both state and federal
14 candidates who have to come to the 31st
15 District looking for votes, looking to hear
16 what the people of our district have to say.
17 It is a fear among many of us that if we
18 were to be somehow vertically integrated
19 into the cities to the north of us which
20 have more economic and political clout, not
21 only would we lose our visibility to the
22 leaders that we now see, but we will have
23 very little influence into what happens.
24 This is obviously of great concern.
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1 Now, Jamestown being 65 miles south of
2 Buffalo can't in my mind remotely be
3 considered a suburb of Buffalo. We are, as
4 Corning and Elmira, we are small towns. We
5 have a different work ethic. We have a
6 different population base than a larger
7 metropolitan area. Times being what they
8 are and maybe this does come into a little
9 bit of political funding raising reform,
10 candidates go where the money and
11 populations are. I understand that but as a
12 region south of this more populous area, I
13 think we need to be represented in our right
14 for our own problems and I would just urge
15 you to look at it on a population base
16 rather than some easy lines and I would also
17 urge this committee to make a decision
18 before this whole decision will go to the
19 courts because I think that New York, the
20 way it's designed geographically, presents
21 itself very easily to some vertical lines
22 being drawn and there's a lot more to it
23 than that.
24 I thank you very much for the
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1 opportunity to speak before this committee
2 and I would be happy to answer any questions
3 if there are any.
4 SENATOR SKELOS: Any questions?
5 ASSEMBLYMAN PARMENT: Heidi, the one
6 element that I would hope that you might
7 explore with us or give a little testimony
8 on would be the similarities in the
9 manufacturing sector across the southern
10 tier. I know that you and your family have
11 been involved in manufacturing many years
12 and you probably better than most of us
13 understand the economic base that is
14 associated with billable goods manufacturing
15 in the southern tier. If you might reflect
16 on that so that it could be part of the
17 record, I would appreciate that.
18 MS. NAULEAU: Well, I can certainly
19 start by saying that my family began in
20 Jamestown many years ago, many years ago in
21 the manufacturing base and my experience
22 across the southern tier has been dealing
23 with people with similar sized businesses,
24 smaller or larger than my own but a very
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1 similar, I would say feeling and employment
2 base across the southern tier. There is a
3 strong manufacturing base here which I
4 believe needs to be maintained and I don't
5 think you would find that in a metropolitan
6 area. I don't know if that answers your
7 question.
8 ASSEMBLYMAN PARMENT: All right.
9 That's in the direction I was hoping you
10 would go. Yes. You have a community with
11 the major manufacturing, probably the
12 largest manufacturer being in the 1,000
13 employee range than 10,000.
14 MS. NAULEAU: Absolutely. I would
15 say our largest employer in Jamestown
16 actually is not a manufacturer but I guess
17 the largest manufacturer in Jamestown
18 employs somewhere south of 1,000 people.
19 ASSEMBLYMAN PARMENT: And that's
20 similar across the southern tier as I
21 understand it.
22 MS. NAULEAU: That would be very
23 similar with a few exceptions, Corning
24 perhaps, Dresser would employ more but it is
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1 definitely a smaller base and our needs are
2 somewhat different. I'm not trying to
3 suggest that we are special in a way that
4 says we can't step up to the plate and take
5 care of ourselves. It's just that we have a
6 unique district within New York State.
7 ASSEMBLYMAN PARMENT: Thank you.
8 SENATOR SKELOS: Thank you, very much
9 for taking time to be here.
10 Marsha Merrins, President, League of
11 Women Voters, Chautauqua County.
12 MS. MERRINS: Good morning, Senator
13 Skelos, Assemblyman Parment, Senator
14 Dollinger, Assemblyman Ortloff. Thank you
15 for giving the League of Women Voters of
16 Chautauqua County the opportunity to testify
17 before you on this important public policy
18 issue.
19 As you know, you've probably heard this
20 several times already, the League of Women
21 Voters is a non-profit, nonpartisan
22 organization whose mission is to promote
23 active, informed participation of citizens
24 in government. It is no wonder why I'm here
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1 to testify.
2 I am Marsha Merrins, Vice President of
3 the League of Women Voters of New York State
4 and President of the League of Women Voters
5 of Chautauqua County. That is in the 31st
6 Congressional District.
7 The League as well as many others,
8 believes the time has come to take the
9 redistricting process out of the hands of
10 political parties and find one that is more
11 open and fair.
12 My neighbor Marge Weist said and I
13 quote, "Political parties have reached such
14 a sophisticated degree of strategizing that
15 they have taken away from people any belief
16 that there's fairness in either the process
17 or the result. Most of us believe political
18 parties are undoubtedly involved with
19 gamesmanship. The redistricting process
20 needs what every sport event requires and
21 that is a belief that the referees would be
22 fair and neutral. No one would go to a
23 Super Bowl where there were no referees."
24 As I read local newspaper accounts of
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1 the redistricting efforts of county
2 legislators both in Erie and Chautauqua, I
3 realized I needed a lesson in redistricting.
4 So, I attended our County Legislative
5 Committee studying the issue. Our
6 Legislature has a democratic majority and
7 the committee consisted of three democrats
8 and two republicans. The process was
9 exactly as I had expected with each
10 defending what was apparent to me the
11 parceling of territory for political gain.
12 It was nothing more than a ball game without
13 an ump. That's what it appeared to me. The
14 credibility of the process would increase a
15 hundred fold if there were nonpartisan
16 representation on the committee.
17 The League recommends that you use a
18 nonpartisan redistricting system and I don't
19 know what that would be, for drawing lines
20 and that these lines should be drawn by a
21 nonpartisan commission.
22 Ensuring a political party's incumbents
23 have led to some creative redistricting. As
24 Barbara Bartoletti, Legislative Director of
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1 the League of Women Voters of New York State
2 said, "These designer districts literally
3 allow legislators to choose the voters
4 before the voters have a chance to choose
5 them."
6 This 2001/2002 process could be the
7 most open in history. Website technology
8 can give us all the information used in the
9 development of district lines. Citizens
10 could be participatory. What a meaningful
11 way to get the vote out. The redrafting of
12 districts could and should be made public
13 early in 2002 so that citizens may have time
14 to consider and comment.
15 Current technology has some downsides.
16 We can all give many examples but what it
17 has done is to open up access to information
18 quickly, graphically and simply to many
19 people who will live with the effects of
20 redistricting.
21 The objective data that Amo Houghton,
22 Congressman Amo Houghton just gave us would
23 really be the type of data that would be
24 helpful to the citizens' understanding of
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1 the drawing of district lines.
2 The League of Women Voters of
3 Chautauqua County believes that all voters
4 have an equal voice in our representative
5 democracy.
6 New York's Constitution puts the
7 responsibility absolutely on the shoulders
8 of the Legislature. This is a system that
9 is unlikely to change. If redistricting
10 lines are redrawn with obvious favoritism,
11 these testimonies will be seen only as a
12 superficial acknowledgement of public
13 participation.
14 In addition to the above
15 recommendations, the League has developed
16 specific guidelines for the process of
17 redistricting. These guidelines have been
18 sent to your office following prior
19 testimony by Elsie Wager, League of Women
20 Voters New York State President. The League
21 position on apportionment is based on its
22 conviction that shifts in population
23 according to census information is the most
24 equitable way of assuring that each vote is
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1 of equal value in a democratic and
2 representative system of government.
3 I have given you my mother's cartoon
4 from the Sun Sentinel and for those of you
5 who haven't seen it, I hope you have it,
6 there's a group of women from the League of
7 Women Voters that are asking a wizard and
8 they say to the wizard, oh great wizard, we
9 are the League of Women Voters and we want
10 the politics taken out of redistricting and
11 the wizard says in his crystal ball, gee,
12 ask me for something easier like diverting a
13 hurricane.
14 Thank you for this opportunity to share
15 our views with you. The League looks ahead
16 to the dialogue and hopes these testimonies
17 are not only heard but acted upon by our
18 legislators.
19 Thank you.
20 SENATOR SKELOS: Assemblyman Parment.
21 ASSEMBLYMAN PARMENT: Thank you,
22 Marsha, for your testimony. Somewhat in
23 response to what you said, more than a
24 question, both for the public hearing and
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1 the media, the Task Force did meet in Albany
2 about a month ago, I've forgotten exactly
3 when and voted to make available to the
4 public through a website and on CD rom disk
5 at a cost of $10, all of the census data
6 that we have from the US Census to do the
7 redistricting.
8 In addition we have indicated that we
9 will make available all of our political
10 analysis data that we will be using in
11 attempting to meet the requirements of the
12 Voting Rights Act of 1965 and its
13 amendments.
14 We are also making available this data
15 on hard map at reproduction cost. Senator
16 Dollinger had asked us to investigate
17 expanding the political data that we would
18 use in the analysis of several specific
19 elections and we are looking at the
20 possibility of doing that.
21 I wanted to say that in part because I
22 don't think that it has been widely known in
23 Western New York.
24 MS. MERRINS: That is correct.
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1 ASSEMBLYMAN PARMENT: That this data
2 will be available. I think that it will be
3 helpful to the public, for individuals who
4 would be specifically interested in trying
5 to analyze the problem of redistricting,
6 what suggestions they might make to us. We
7 have also indicated that we would be willing
8 to accept from the public or any
9 individuals, plans that they would draw for
10 consideration and I might ask other members
11 of the Task Force to expand on my remarks
12 because I think it is important that the
13 public have available to them all of the
14 data that is possible to have and certainly
15 all that we will be using. From my point of
16 view and I think I share with Senator Skelos
17 and I and I'm sure the other members of the
18 panel, would say anything that we have, the
19 public can have.
20 We probably would then be mutually
21 confused by it all but it's an enormous
22 amount of data but we do hope that the
23 public will take advantage of the CD rom and
24 the website and the hard maps. I'm one of
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1 the dinosaurs on this Task Force. I still
2 work on hard maps and I have a little
3 hand-held Texas instrument calculator which
4 I can only do arithmetic on basically but I
5 think that the point is that you don't need
6 a computer to do this. I think you can do
7 it from the data in a sense but the computer
8 age gives us an incredible ability to modify
9 districts rapidly and to analyze the changes
10 that we make by moving a line boundary from
11 one township to the next.
12 So, we are going to make that available
13 and I don't know that we would have made it
14 available without the urging of NYPIRG and
15 the League of Women Voters but we certainly
16 are not unwilling. We would be happy to
17 make what we have available.
18 MS. MERRINS: If there is a website
19 that does have that information that is
20 updated on a regular basis regarding your
21 efforts and the redistricting process, it is
22 not really helpful to Marge Weist, my
23 neighbor if only we know about it as it
24 should be. It almost cannot be in the body
.82
1 of a report on this testimony to this
2 hearing. It almost should be, like find
3 out, New York State wants you to know about
4 redistricting and it should be like a little
5 box ad that says, you know, hit WWW whatever
6 redistricting and you can be up to date. It
7 should be an ad because people never read
8 beyond -- few people read beyond the second
9 or third paragraph in a news column.
10 So, you can say it's out there but
11 Marge Weist is not a political creature.
12 She really believes the average person
13 really believes that it's done in a very
14 secretive political way and if you say,
15 well, all the information is out there, it
16 has to be presented so that they know where
17 to find it. That's just my personal point
18 of view and probably educating the voters is
19 where politicians get their credibility or
20 more credible factors for that effort.
21 ASSEMBLYMAN PARMENT: The technical
22 answer to that suggestion, I am unaware of
23 and hopefully others would be able to do
24 that, make it more available. I probably
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1 couldn't find it on the website either.
2 MS. MERRINS: Even a PSA on local
3 radio stations, if you want to know about
4 redistricting and our efforts, WWW dot, you
5 know, everybody listens to WWW dot. So, it
6 would be easy but to say it's out there and
7 nobody can find it.
8 ASSEMBLYMAN PARMENT: You're making
9 me feel even more like a dinosaur. I don't
10 look for WWW dot.
11 MS. MERRINS: Yes.
12 ASSEMBLYMAN PARMENT: But one
13 additional comment, we are willing to take
14 plans submitted by the public or groups and
15 we recognize in accepting those plans,
16 details that people might present to us
17 would not be sufficient to pass the tests of
18 the various laws and constitutional
19 restraints that we are actually under.
20 So, in viewing them, I personally am
21 going to discount the detail and look at the
22 purpose of the plan that might be submitted
23 but I would say one of the more difficult
24 things for the public to understand in this
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1 process is the enormity of the body of law
2 that regulates this process and sources of
3 it are in the State Constitution the Federal
4 Constitution and Court Law interpreting both
5 of those Constitutions as well as federal
6 statutes that govern what we can do.
7 Just to give you an idea of how
8 intricate this process is, the court cases
9 that we used as guidelines that we feel we
10 must adhere to, tell us that we must
11 redistrict New York State Congressional
12 districts in such a manner that the 29
13 districts will all have exactly equal
14 populations with a deviation not greater
15 than one person and that is an amazing thing
16 to think about when you realize that the
17 data is presented to us in census blocks and
18 we can't divide a census block.
19 So, it becomes that intricate and
20 again, I don't think the public generally
21 understands how restrained we are in what we
22 do.
23 MS. MERRINS: That might be something
24 that Marge Weist doesn't know. I mean, that
.85
1 might be. She might get inspired to be
2 creative with a pencil and not know the
3 limitations but it would be an educational
4 experience for the public.
5 ASSEMBLYMAN PARMENT: Right and
6 again, I'm willing to take those pencil
7 drawn maps and consider them in the spirit
8 that they are given and not apply the court
9 cases to them. We have to do that but thank
10 you for your testimony.
11 MS. MERRINS: Thank you.
12 MR. HEDGES: Following up on
13 Assemblyman Parment, we have got a website
14 up for the Assembly and the Senate has a
15 website up where those announcements are
16 featured as the front page introduction to
17 the Assembly and the front page introduction
18 to the Senate. Assemblyman Parment
19 indicated that in our meetings that we had
20 about a month ago that we said we were going
21 to try to get a website up as quickly as we
22 can. I think we are within a few days of
23 having that joint website up and running.
24 In the meantime, the Assembly web page
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1 is WWW.ASSEMBLY.STAET.NY.US and you should
2 know that and the Senate is identical except
3 for rather than Assembly, it says Senate.
4 MS. MERRINS: I have been to your
5 website. I mean, I have been to the
6 Assembly but I have to know to look for it.
7 The common person is not going to look for
8 it if they had a little box ad.
9 MR. HEDGES: And the $100,000 worth
10 of ads got us complaints about the fact that
11 we didn't advertise enough and at what point
12 should the public be responsible to seek out
13 information as the Legislature provides it,
14 because they provide it in droves, to the
15 point where we were actually mailing things
16 to the districts and then that cost money
17 and that's money not well spent and every
18 one of those newsletters, every district in
19 the state, there are references back to the
20 website of the two Houses in an effort to do
21 that and the only press stories we received
22 on that were the press stories that say,
23 members shouldn't be allowed to mail those
24 things.
.87
1 MS. MERRINS: It's a little simpler
2 to mail it but certainly if you are looking
3 at the website, you can find it.
4 MR. HEDGES: The point is, we are up
5 and available very quickly and in part
6 because as Blair pointed out, they were hard
7 to find before and that having been said, we
8 will have an announcement there as soon as
9 the website is up and running and I expect
10 that to be in a few days.
11 MS. MERRINS: And the League of Women
12 Voters applauds your efforts really to make
13 the process as open and as simple as
14 possible to the average voter. Thank you
15 very much.
16 ASSEMBLYMAN ORTLOFF: I have a
17 question, please.
18 I'm a former newsman so I'm going to
19 claim a prerogative that most of us don't
20 have and I probably take at my peril but we
21 have had now 11 hearings. Today is the
22 eleventh hearing.
23 MS. MERRINS: And I'm the last
24 person?
.88
1 ASSEMBLYMAN ORTLOFF: And we have
2 gone all around the state and every place
3 that we have had hearings has a daily
4 newspaper, many of them have weekly
5 newspapers in addition to the $100,000 of
6 advertising we sent out, news releases in
7 advance of the hearings, we have tried to
8 make them not just dry but interesting.
9 Even one week we tried to make them
10 provocative. The only major news coverage
11 in advance of any of these hearings was a
12 Sunday article in the Rochester Democrat and
13 Chronicle, I believe it was a week ago. The
14 only major story that says, come on out,
15 make your voices heard, they are going to be
16 here, you have an opportunity to speak.
17 Now, I know the news room is a very
18 competitive place and I think I should not
19 be any more critical than that but the
20 implication is that we can't do it alone. I
21 speak to school groups all the time and one
22 of the points that I try to make to fourth
23 and fifth graders is that your government is
24 not in Albany, it's here. You are the
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1 government and yet we need the news media to
2 play its role in helping to inform you.
3 So, I would urge you as the League of
4 Women Voters not only to ask us to make
5 information available but to ask our
6 partners, the media, to play their part in
7 informing people. I have yet to see any
8 news media put out a map of the current
9 districts. We have sent them maps every
10 week, given them the visuals. You can tell
11 your constituents where the districts are
12 and let them come. They are not interested.
13 When we adopt a map, then you will all
14 be all over us but I'm suggesting that the
15 public, your goal is to have an informed
16 election, correct? That's in your charter
17 and I think that we share that goal but we
18 need the cooperation of the news media and
19 I'm glad, you know, the fact that so many of
20 them are still here is also unusual. Most
21 hearings they come for five minutes and
22 leave. So, this is really good.
23 Now, I have a couple of questions. I'm
24 confused, not by your testimony. I have
.90
1 been confused by the League's position all
2 spring and summer.
3 On the one hand the statement that you
4 referred to earlier that was delivered by
5 your president in Binghamton suggested that
6 this process be nonpartisan. You helped me
7 a little bit by making an analogy to a game
8 with referees and players but my confusion
9 is that as I try to understand what it is
10 you want to happen, all I keep coming back
11 to is that you would like to have this,
12 let's say the football game, we'll pick that
13 sport, be played by people who have never
14 played the game before, who don't have
15 uniforms that belong to a team, who don't
16 know what the rules are and I don't know how
17 you conduct any exercise by forcing the
18 people who know how it's done to stay on the
19 sidelines and put other people on the field.
20 I don't see how you think that gives a
21 better result.
22 MS. MERRINS: Touche for the analogy
23 but the truth is that there should be people
24 who are political let's say who know the
.91
1 process but also have nonpartisan components
2 of that committee so that when a product
3 comes out, it has the credibility of not
4 being one team's or the other team's but
5 because of the nonpartisan neutrality
6 hopefully, the product becomes more credible
7 to people, to voters and they don't feel
8 disenfranchised with the process. These is
9 a voice that is theirs and I think that's
10 the point.
11 ASSEMBLYMAN ORTLOFF: So you say you
12 are not saying that republicans and
13 democrats should be excluded from the
14 process?
15 MS. MERRINS: I don't think that's
16 possible. Besides that, I don't think's
17 possible.
18 ASSEMBLYMAN ORTLOFF: That was my
19 point.
20 MS. MERRINS: Right.
21 ASSEMBLYMAN ORTLOFF: What about the
22 other part of the League's proposal that the
23 process be conducted without reference to
24 the political party enrollment figures or
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1 election results? I don't know how you do
2 that either.
3 MS. MERRINS: I don't either. I
4 don't have that information with me.
5 Probably Marge could address that a little
6 more concisely. It's not really something
7 that I can talk to you about with the
8 knowledge that you have as well.
9 ASSEMBLYMAN ORTLOFF: Okay. Thank
10 you.
11 SENATOR SKELOS: Marsha, come back
12 for one more second. I just want to assure
13 you of one thing, that we have spent a lot
14 of the public's money gathering information
15 not only on the census but we spent a lot of
16 the public money, I remember Hedges talked
17 about the money we put into ads. I want to
18 assure you that what we bought, the data
19 that we have is really the public's data and
20 we paid for it with the public's money and
21 certainly I think the intention of this Task
22 Force is to give as much of that information
23 back to the public but at the same time I
24 think the point made by Assemblyman Parment
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1 and others and I think it's a critical one,
2 I'm an attorney and I've followed
3 reapportionment case for a decade, for more
4 than a decade. I've read all the stuff.
5 I've listened to a lot of people talk and I
6 still don't know what the block on border
7 rule is. It's some mystical thing that we
8 must do in New York but I'm convinced it's a
9 magical thing that Bruy understands and Mr.
10 Hedges understands but probably a dozen
11 people who understand it, they have
12 patiently explained it to me and I still am
13 mystified by it.
14 I tell that story only because while we
15 are going to ask the public to participate
16 and I want to encourage you, I think we have
17 all said that if you have a pencil or a
18 crayon and want to draw us a plan, we will
19 take a look at it and consider it but in
20 order to do the highly technical job that we
21 need to accomplish, the resources, the
22 information to do it right, to make sure, no
23 matter what our preference is, whether it's
24 for political plan A or an impartial plan, a
.94
1 competitive plan like Mr. Horner talked
2 about, in order to get there, there's an
3 enormous amount of data that we have to take
4 into account. It could easily fill this
5 room and that's why I would encourage the
6 League to the extent that it wants to draw
7 plans, if there is any information we have
8 that you don't have, ask for it and we will
9 try to get it to you but I think that this
10 process, one of the frustrations is, this is
11 an important process. This is an important
12 -- we have heard from Group 31 about the
13 importance of preserving a voice for the
14 southern tier that is different from voices
15 elsewhere in the state. That's what
16 reapportionment is all about and that's what
17 redistricting is all about but I can't
18 simplify it for you so that everybody in New
19 York can do it.
20 I would like to have them have a chance
21 but it's so complex, we only do it once a
22 decade, it's very difficult to rouse the
23 public to understand what it means and have
24 them appreciate what we have got to do.
.95
1 MS. MERRINS: In my simplistic mind
2 and I appreciate budget constraints and I
3 know that there has been a lot of money,
4 taxpayer money spent on these hearings, 11
5 hearings around the state, transportation
6 costs and whatever costs you have, if there
7 is any money left of the budget after this
8 website is up and complete with as much
9 simplified information or detailed
10 information that you have, if you could take
11 some of that money and actually buy a block
12 ad. The media may not or the newspaper may
13 not print a news release. We all suffer
14 from that in newspapers, you know, the
15 League would like a lot more publicity about
16 a lot of the wonderful things that we do but
17 we don't get it because of time constraints
18 or space constraints or other issues that
19 are bigger but if some of that budget that
20 you have where, you actually bought an ad in
21 a paper that said, and I don't know the
22 legalities of this mind you, there might be
23 some reason that you can't do that but just
24 a block ad that says, learn about
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1 redistricting. Confused about
2 redistricting?
3 Whatever, you know, get a marketing
4 bias for educating the public and I think
5 that's what you need. I mean, that's my
6 simplistic look at it. Maybe I would click
7 on it when I was looking through the website
8 or something.
9 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Thank you.
10 SENATOR SKELOS: Our next witness is
11 Lisa LaTrovato.
12 MS. LATROVATO: Good morning. My
13 name is Lisa LaTrovato. I'm from Monroe
14 County, although I'm from Chili, New York in
15 Monroe County, I was adopted by Buffalo,
16 this great city a couple of years back when
17 I attended the University of Buffalo here.
18 I was out at the Buffalo campus today
19 and I'm a firm believer in SUNY schools. I
20 was very happy to see the expansion that has
21 gone on since the two years that I left.
22 So, it's a wonderful school you have.
23 I have a journey to tell you about
24 today and that journey started yesterday in
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1 Monroe County. I was signed up to speak but
2 I decided not to. I felt everyone had said
3 what I was going to say. I had a town
4 meeting with a few residents in Chili last
5 night and said, you know, there are issues
6 that you would not have thought about.
7 So, today I'm here not just for myself
8 but for other constituents of the Town of
9 Chili which is in Monroe County and the 27th
10 Congressional District.
11 Although I'm very proud of the
12 residents of Chili, I feel disenfranchised
13 as a Monroe County resident and the reason
14 for this feeling is based on my
15 Congressional representation. The 27th
16 Congressional District which is represented
17 by Thomas Reynolds which encompasses nine
18 counties: Cayuga, Erie, Genesee,
19 Livingston, Ontario, Seneca, Wayne, Wyoming
20 and of course a chunk of Monroe County.
21 Each county has a unique need.
22 The Town of Chili is represented by a
23 Congress person that has eight other
24 competing counties to focus on, it is
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1 unfortunate and unfair to those who live in
2 Monroe County. Chili is what we call an
3 inner ring suburb around the City of
4 Rochester. So that would be more beneficial
5 to them to shift to the 28th Congressional
6 District.
7 Having been home from college a few
8 years now, it's very, very rare for me to
9 even see our Congress person and I totally
10 understand with eight other counties between
11 a district office, between Washington, it's
12 a very tough job for a Congress person and
13 I'm sure Representative Houghton would
14 attest to that.
15 Instead I see a lot more of my
16 representative from the 20th District,
17 Congresswoman Slaughter who is constantly
18 fighting for services that my family and I
19 use on a daily basis such as the airport
20 having been upgraded, being a single voice
21 of Jet Blue Airlines, having them come in
22 and bringing low-cost air fare so that we
23 have competing business.
24 This is not my representative, as I
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1 said, a Congress person's job is very
2 difficult, dividing your time in the
3 district office and covering the nine
4 counties. I just want to highlight the
5 complexity of what it means to represent
6 those nine counties at one time.
7 The future of Chili is contingent upon
8 economic growth and to be able to accomplish
9 this, Chili should no longer be
10 disenfranchised from Monroe County. Monroe
11 County must be unified through the
12 collective resources and it will continue to
13 prosper in the 21st Century and with a
14 single advocate in Washington, it can assure
15 that that happens.
16 Thank you.
17 SENATOR SKELOS: Any questions?
18 Thank you, very much. Oh, I'm sorry.
19 ASSEMBLYMAN PARMENT: I have one
20 question on the inner ring communities. I'm
21 not familiar with that area. Could you tell
22 me, is Gates part of the inner ring as well?
23 MS. LATROVATO: Yes, it is.
24 ASSEMBLYMAN PARMENT: How about Ogden
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1 and Parma?
2 MS. LATROVATO: Ogden is farther out.
3 ASSEMBLYMAN PARMENT: Farther out and
4 Parma as well is further out?
5 MS. LATROVATO: Correct.
6 ASSEMBLYMAN PARMENT: Okay. So the
7 two towns in Rochester that are not in the
8 Congressional district represented by the
9 representative who has the City of
10 Rochester.
11 MS. LATROVATO: Yes.
12 ASSEMBLYMAN PARMENT: Would be Gates
13 and Chili.
14 MS. LATROVATO: That is correct.
15 ASSEMBLYMAN PARMENT: Okay. Do you
16 think the folks in Gates would feel the same
17 way that you do living in Chili, that they
18 would be more apt to belong to the Rochester
19 district than the Niagara Falls district?
20 MS. LATROVATO: Well, I can't speak
21 for them. I would have to say that they
22 also use the same services that we do and
23 where the funding comes from is not from
24 Erie County, it comes from Monroe County.
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1 ASSEMBLYMAN PARMENT: Thank you.
2 SENATOR SKELOS: Thank you, very
3 much.
4 Mr. Carl Hayden.
5 MR. HAYDEN: Let me begin by
6 indicating that although I am First
7 Chancellor of the New York State Board of
8 Regents, I'm here today in my capacity as a
9 citizen and as a proud constituent of Amo
10 Houghton's.
11 I want to say as well simply as an
12 aside to Assemblyman Ortloff, there has been
13 no sparsity as to coverage of your
14 deliberations in the southern tier. Every
15 media outlet from electronic to print has
16 treated this as a story of the first rank
17 and we have extensive coverage in this
18 morning's edition of all the papers in the
19 Corning/Elmira area on the results of your
20 meeting in Rochester yesterday. So there's
21 obviously lively interest.
22 One of my dearest friends and in his
23 lifetime was a shoemaker and he was an
24 immigrant from another country and he was
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1 fond of acronyms and one of which he was
2 most fond of was that big fish eat little
3 fish and that, of course I think is one of
4 the things that you've heard consistently
5 here today starting with Senator McGee and
6 continuing on through Congressman Houghton.
7 I would certainly by instinct say the
8 same thing to you. The likelihood of the
9 major population centers dominating the
10 lesser population centers in a political
11 process is one that is well known to you and
12 we see it in our politics all the time. We
13 see it in campaigns that are built upon the
14 thruway model of organization. We even see
15 it in the way in which we structure our
16 hearings and I know that although you have
17 been every place there is to go virtually in
18 the State of New York, it is hard to resist
19 the temptation to go where the largest
20 concentrations of people are. It makes
21 sense economically and also you have access
22 to the major media outlets which will more
23 broadly disburse the message but the 31st
24 District is unique and it's not unique in
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1 the sense that it's different from all other
2 districts.
3 In fact we were talking before the
4 hearing and Assemblyman Ortloff quite
5 properly pointed out that the north country
6 has many of the same attributes that we do
7 but my knowledge is about the southern tier
8 and the 31st and what I would like to do is
9 I would like to make some comments about
10 what it is that makes us unique. I don't
11 want to talk about -- get away from this
12 whole macro big versus the little a little
13 bit and take a micro view of what your
14 deliberations mean for us as citizens of the
15 southern tier and to give you some practical
16 examples from my own life which I hope will
17 help you understand our concerns and then I
18 think finally I would like to have a very
19 brief word about competitiveness.
20 We are a district along with the
21 Pennsylvania border. We run all the way
22 from the edge of, a little part of Tompkins
23 County as I understand it, to Lake Erie. We
24 consist almost entirely of urban, lovely,
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1 splendid, spectacular geography and both our
2 problems and our opportunities are driven by
3 that geography.
4 Sparsity is a fact of life that affects
5 everything that we do and think about. Our
6 major issues are those of infrastructure,
7 economic infrastructure, transportation
8 infrastructure and communications
9 infrastructure and because we are so vast
10 and because our population is so disbursed,
11 in the context in which we presently find
12 ourselves, we are at risk of becoming an
13 afterthought and that worries me a great
14 deal.
15 One of the things that I would like you
16 to consider that I think sets us apart from
17 most of the district is that although we are
18 rural in our basic profile, we have an array
19 of small cities that cross the entire
20 districts, Dunkirk, Jamestown, some of these
21 would probably be technically villages but
22 Dunkirk, Jamestown, Salamanca, Olean,
23 Alfred, Hornell, Bath, Corning, Elmira and
24 from a political perspective, one of the
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1 things that is very interesting about this
2 is whether you are republican or democrat,
3 you may not serve the constituency of the
4 21st by catering to the preferences of one
5 place over another based upon population.
6 Because we are so homogenous in our rural
7 subset and our small city subset, it is
8 incumbent upon anyone who will represent us
9 to be everywhere, all the time and it is not
10 possible to survive by paying particular
11 attention to one part of the district while
12 ignoring the other and that is the point
13 that I try to make which I have identified
14 as really a micro point and that is that
15 while we think it is important for us to
16 preserve our identity as a district, it is
17 also I think fundamentally important for you
18 to think about a preserving a district in
19 which everybody is literally perceived as an
20 equal in his or her treatment by our elected
21 representatives, whether they be an Assembly
22 district, Senatorial district or
23 Congressional district.
24 Amo Houghton I will tell you is
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1 everywhere all the time and he is there as a
2 matter of preference but I think also simply
3 because he is a representative who cares
4 about all his constituents, he appreciates
5 that he cannot be in one place at the
6 neglect of another.
7 All of our voices are heard. All of
8 our voices need to be listened to and no
9 particular city dominates the affairs of
10 this district.
11 I would like to give you an example if
12 I may to help enforce our discussion about
13 whether this realignment should go
14 north/south or east and west and I would
15 like to particularly attempt to respond to
16 what I think is a very important question
17 that has been framed by Senator Dollinger.
18 As a region I have frequent occasions
19 to travel across the state as many of you do
20 but I have the wonderful opportunity to
21 travel between Elmira, New York and Albany.
22 Now, sometimes I seek to do that by air
23 and when I choose to do that and by the way
24 it's about a three-hour drive from Elmira,
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1 when I choose to travel by air, you would be
2 interested to know that I have to go either
3 by Pittsburgh to the southwest in order to
4 get northeast or I have to go to
5 Philadelphia or I have to go to New York
6 City, assuming that there is any way to get
7 in or out of Laguardia and assuming we still
8 have a flight to Laguardia and while it is
9 true that in Rochester and Buffalo there are
10 legitimate concerns about the quality of
11 transportation, costs, access, the number of
12 flights, destinations, all of those things,
13 that debate in our part of the world is a
14 very different debate. It's not about
15 whether or not we can secure Jet Blue in
16 Elmira. Elmira/Corning is the major airport
17 in the southern tier. Most of the rest of
18 our community have little or no air service.
19 So for us it is not whether we are
20 going to be able to in some fashion bring
21 down the cost of air travel and provide more
22 destination opportunities for our citizens,
23 for us it's whether we will have any air
24 service at all.
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1 Now, we have airlines coming and going
2 to our airport constantly and the level of
3 inconvenience is such that one of the issues
4 that our Congressman confronts on a daily
5 basis is how do you deal with a very large
6 number of our citizens who because of
7 considerations of cost and convenience
8 choose to drive two hours to Rochester or
9 three hours to Buffalo in order to make air
10 connections that they can't make where they
11 live.
12 That I think is an illustration of the
13 kind of issue that distinguishes what it
14 feels like to live in the southern tier and
15 the 31st as opposed to living in a more
16 urban setting.
17 Finally I would like to say a word
18 about competitiveness, competition in a
19 political sense.
20 I am a registered democrat. If I were
21 to look at this problem through simply a
22 partisan lens, the right answer for
23 democrats living in the southern tier is for
24 these districts to be reconfigured on a
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1 north/south access. The reason is obvious.
2 It is very likely if that were the solution,
3 that the Congressman or Congresswoman
4 thereafter would be a democrat or at least
5 the chances of that occurring would be
6 markedly enhanced.
7 Now, I would be in favor of preserving
8 the 31st even if it were to be republican in
9 perpetuity for the reasons that I've just
10 stated and I must tell you that right now it
11 is not competitive, Senator Skelos, as I
12 think we have all sort of loosely defined
13 that concept, even though you are correct to
14 point out that we were previously
15 represented by Democratic Stan Lundine who
16 was a great representative, we have had
17 wonderful good fortune to have Stan Lundine
18 and Amo Houghton as our representative but
19 one of the things that happened after Stan
20 left and I think during the time that Amo
21 has been there, is that one of the earlier
22 reapportionments worked in a way that
23 essentially rendered the 31st a safe
24 republican district absent totally
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1 extraordinary circumstances.
2 There is a way I believe in which that
3 could be remedied and this I will try to be
4 now responsive to Senator Dollinger's
5 question. I think going east to Tompkins
6 County serves to create a level of
7 competitiveness for that district. I think
8 a republican would still be heavily favored
9 and that's consistent with our population
10 and our traditions but a democrat would have
11 a fighting chance. I do not believe that
12 the same would be true if the 31st were
13 preserved but expanded in a northerly rather
14 than an easterly direction.
15 So, this is a district worth
16 preserving. This is a district that has
17 immense promise. We have a long bipartisan
18 tradition in our part of the world. We work
19 together ungrudgingly. It's one of the
20 hallmarks of our representation in the last
21 25 years whether our person in Congress has
22 been democrat or republican, they have been
23 moderate and perfectly willing to work with
24 their colleagues on the other side of the
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1 aisle.
2 I think that a priority for your
3 committee ought to be to find a way to
4 preserve this district and I appreciate your
5 hearing me out.
6 ASSEMBLYMAN PARMENT: Chancellor, I
7 would like to pursue a competitive question
8 with you about competitiveness. You are a
9 practicing attorney in Elmira.
10 MR. HAYDEN: Occasionally.
11 ASSEMBLYMAN PARMENT: Occasionally.
12 You are in a judicial district that includes
13 the City of Rochester I believe, is that
14 correct?
15 MR. HAYDEN: I'm not -- I think I get
16 the thrust of your question.
17 ASSEMBLYMAN PARMENT: What judicial
18 district would you be in?
19 MR. HAYDEN: I'm in the sixth. The
20 seventh is a much better example.
21 ASSEMBLYMAN PARMENT: Let's talk
22 about the seventh. In the seventh district
23 basically the lines are north and south.
24 MR. HAYDEN: Yes and the judicial
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1 nomination process is totally dominated by
2 Rochester and if in fact a judge is going to
3 be created and one of the outlying counties,
4 one of our counties, it is always because of
5 the special relationship between the
6 affected individual and the political
7 leadership in Monroe County.
8 ASSEMBLYMAN PARMENT: Would you say
9 that it's very unusual for a competitive
10 race to be run by a person from the southern
11 tier for that judicial district?
12 MR. HAYDEN: I do indeed, although
13 there is now a member of the Appellate
14 Division, Judge Henry Skutter from Bath who
15 did exactly that but I would argue that he's
16 an exceptional guy and that result was an
17 anomaly.
18 ASSEMBLYMAN PARMENT: Is he perhaps
19 the only judge at the Supreme Court level
20 from Steuben County?
21 MR. HAYDEN: Yes.
22 ASSEMBLYMAN PARMENT: Does Elmira
23 have a resident Supreme Court judge?
24 MR. HAYDEN: We do and yet, that I
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1 think gives you a sense of what it means to
2 have something that is more nearly
3 resembling parity because in our judicial
4 nominating process, Elmira is the next
5 biggest population center compared to
6 Binghamton and Binghamton is really the
7 place where most of the judicial decisions
8 are made in the sixth judicial district and
9 yet we have got enough influence to have a
10 voice.
11 So that is one of the things we are
12 talking about here, is the importance of
13 this lovely array of fairly evenly sized
14 cities in which no one city gets
15 consideration over the others.
16 ASSEMBLYMAN PARMENT: Okay. That was
17 basically my point I guess. Thank you.
18 ASSEMBLYMAN ORTLOFF: Chancellor,
19 just one last for me to nail down this
20 concept and I want to say you have
21 articulated it very well and at any time we
22 hear one more nuance of it, it makes it even
23 more persuasive.
24 As you and I were talking earlier,
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1 there are I think five or six upstate
2 Congressional districts that are essentially
3 rural in nature with no large city
4 dominating, probably Congressman Bowler's
5 district could say it's dominated by
6 Utica/Rome but certainly the 24th, 22nd and
7 -- the 22nd is a good example because that
8 probably deliberately, I wasn't here ten
9 years ago, skirts and avoids the
10 metropolitan area of Troy and Albany and
11 then goes on farther south. There is the
12 31st and the 20th -- no, that's Syracuse.
13 Yes, here is 26 and actually if you
14 look at it, despite the fact that it
15 includes Amherst and as we heard, Chili,
16 Congressman Reynolds' district is not
17 dominated by New York City but the essence
18 of what you are saying then if we can just
19 nail this one last time is that the
20 opportunity for any one local within the
21 district to have an individual of
22 qualification and certainly obvious caliber
23 to rise to the top is uninhibited in a
24 district of this nature, whereas any
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1 district including a large metropolitan
2 area, that whole opportunity would be in
3 affect thwarted.
4 MR. HAYDEN: It would be thwarted and
5 it would only exist at the sufferance of the
6 larger community.
7 ASSEMBLYMAN ORTLOFF: Which is not
8 really the participatory democracy we want.
9 MR. HAYDEN: Certainly isn't and by
10 the way, there is an independent importance
11 to be attached to having competitive
12 political races. I think our democracy
13 prospers where ideas come into collision and
14 that does not really happen in any practical
15 way in a one-party setting. There is a
16 utility to having two strong parties, each
17 of which has at least the perception that if
18 its ideas are right, it can prevail.
19 ASSEMBLYMAN ORTLOFF: And yet in the
20 31st, if I can continue on one other nuance
21 here, as you quite correctly pointed out,
22 Congressman Lundine was elected and I
23 believe, I wasn't there but by a pretty
24 substantial margin, was he not?
.116
1 MR. HAYDEN: Well, not the first
2 time.
3 ASSEMBLYMAN ORTLOFF: I understand
4 but the thing is in my part of the state we
5 see it all the time and I'm sure it's the
6 same in the southern tier, is that even
7 though the north country is a heavily
8 republican area and as the democrat
9 candidate says each year, you should elect
10 me because I'd be the first democrat since
11 the Civil War which is an interesting, novel
12 argument but a member of the lesser party,
13 the minority party in a rural setting does
14 have an opportunity to get elected in his
15 town if he's an individual of good
16 relationship with his fellow citizens and
17 then to perhaps get elected to the county
18 and as long as there is no one large
19 conglomerate of political power to prevent
20 that, you can kind of rise by steps, can't
21 you in a rural district where you can't
22 really in the city district?
23 MR. HAYDEN: It happens all the time
24 and although the registration imbalance as
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1 you know in some parts of our rural
2 districts makes that a confounding prospect
3 for some democrats.
4 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Chancellor, I
5 want to do two things if you've got a
6 second, first of all, I just want to talk
7 about what happens if we continue this
8 district east and let's say we evicted the
9 31st District from Auburn which is one of
10 the things that have been talked about since
11 it has three Congress people in that city
12 and we moved it west and included Tompkins
13 and we took Ithaca and put Broome in, in
14 essence cut the tail off of Congressman
15 Hinchey's district and put it in a new 29th
16 District. If we did that, we would be
17 adding two cities, Binghamton with a
18 significant population and Ithaca with a
19 population into the character of this
20 southern tier district as you have described
21 it and Congressman Houghton described it,
22 everybody from Team 31 has described it.
23 My question is, if we add two bigger
24 urban, although not big urban as in Syracuse
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1 and Rochester but two bigger cities to this
2 district on the eastern end, do we affect
3 the character of the district, because
4 remember in essence you now have Corning,
5 Elmira, Ithaca and Binghamton on the east
6 end where the populations, there would be
7 more population than in the Allegany County,
8 for example. Do we affect its character if
9 we do that?
10 MR. HAYDEN: Although Binghamton
11 would identify itself as being squarely a
12 part of the southern tier and its
13 infrastructure I think is very much the same
14 as ours, I credit the argument. I think a
15 preferred way in which to do it which
16 wouldn't alter the character of the district
17 and the competitive elements of the district
18 would be to include Tompkins and Tioga and I
19 believe --- or Tompkins and part of Tioga
20 and I believe you could get to the
21 population that you need by doing that
22 without altering the character of the
23 district.
24 SENATOR DOLLINGER: That sort of
.119
1 assumes that we kept that sort of northern
2 trend up into Cayuga County in order to be
3 able to -- in other words, we may flatten
4 the east end down closer to the Pennsylvania
5 border.
6 MR. HAYDEN: I don't have the
7 expertise to comment on that.
8 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Well, here's the
9 other question: I want to tap your role as
10 chancellor, although you do not appear here
11 as a chancellor. Based on your experience
12 with the small school districts, the small
13 city school districts and the rural school
14 districts in the southern tier, is it your
15 opinion that they have a community of
16 interest with those rural school districts,
17 I mean the small city school districts and
18 the rural districts in the southern tier
19 have a unique character or quality that
20 would suggest that they ought to be in the
21 same Congressional district from the point
22 of view of Title 1 funding or other things?
23 MR. HAYDEN: Yes.
24 SENATOR DOLLINGER: You obviously
.120
1 have been there. You have seen them. I
2 would just be interested in your opinion on
3 that.
4 MR. HAYDEN: Well, Senator Dollinger,
5 you are absolutely right and they share a
6 common set of problems. Even city districts
7 have sparsity issues to deal with. They
8 have immense transportation problems that
9 they have to confront every day and for
10 example the buses of the Elmira City school
11 district start run shortly after six o'clock
12 and most of them because of the geography
13 they are required to cover, often are still
14 going up to eight o'clock and later.
15 My children, for example, used to get
16 on a bus at seven in the morning and be on
17 that bus for an hour and 15 minutes before
18 they got to a school which was less than a
19 mile away from our house. Now, I'm not
20 trying to defend that system but I think
21 that illustrates the problem.
22 They have other shared problems. They
23 have the character of poverty in our part of
24 the world, that has certain terrifying
.121
1 similarities, whether it's to be found in
2 the foothills of Appalachia which is really
3 one of the geographic considerations where
4 we live or whether it's to be found in the
5 intercity portions of our small cities, we
6 confront the same literacy issues, the same
7 health issues, the same nutritional and
8 mental health issues across the entire
9 southern tier and there are strategies that
10 we could identify which might very well may
11 be inappropriate for a place like Rochester
12 or Buffalo that can work in our small
13 cities, their suburbs and their rural parts
14 of the balance of the district.
15 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Just a final
16 comment, one of the interesting things about
17 competitiveness is that you draw your
18 attention to the 7th Judicial District which
19 as it turns out, even though it combines a
20 major city and a major urban like county in
21 Monroe, I would think in my own experience
22 as an occasional lawyer as you are, is that
23 we have had enormous difficulty in finding
24 competitive Supreme Court judicial races
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1 because frankly there hasn't been a democrat
2 that has won there since Watergate with
3 maybe one or two possible exceptions and the
4 reason why I say that is because again,
5 depending again on how you configure a
6 district as sizeable as that, that's got a
7 million one or million two people, you can
8 either eliminate or shade the
9 competitiveness in one way or another,
10 although I would also agree with you that
11 based on what I know of this district, I
12 believe that with the addition of Ithaca and
13 perhaps even Broome County, if you were to
14 flatten the top, I would agree with you I
15 think it's a district that would be favoring
16 republican but in unusual circumstances with
17 the right candidate, with a candidate who
18 has worked as hard as Congressman Houghton
19 and Stan Lundine before, it can go either
20 way.
21 MR. HAYDEN: Thank you all very much.
22 SENATOR SKELOS: Thank you, very
23 much.
24 Terrence A. Robinson.
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1 MR. ROBINSON: Good morning. I come
2 before you just as a private citizen, a guy
3 from Buffalo. I came here to listen and to
4 learn and I'm also here partially in my
5 capacity as a campaign strategist for my
6 brother, Michael who is running for the Erie
7 County Legislature of the 7th District.
8 From what I heard today, I understand
9 that your considerations seem to be
10 primarily statistically driven but I think
11 underlying that statistical basis,
12 population, deviation and that sort of
13 thing, the basis of that was some sort of
14 fundamental fairness consideration.
15 Thank you, Assemblyman Parment for
16 bringing up the significance of the judicial
17 districts and the politically-driven aspect
18 of those considerations.
19 I'm here or I'm speaking nor primarily
20 to just offer some observations that I hope
21 will, if they cannot alter your
22 consideration, perhaps may just be addressed
23 in some manner in your final report.
24 Recent studies have indicated that both
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1 the Buffalo area and the New York City area
2 are among the most segregated racially areas
3 in the country. That brings into question a
4 number of considerations in terms of
5 representation of those constituents. I
6 don't know how that issue can be resolved
7 when you have, for instance, massive blocks
8 of one particular people in one very small
9 area as to whether or not the representation
10 that is accorded them is appropriate or
11 proportionate.
12 One other area and I don't know that it
13 is statistically very significant but it
14 also hinges on the 31st, is the question of
15 our incarceration rate, the
16 disenfranchisement of those individuals that
17 are incarcerated shifted from one area and
18 counted in another area in the reflection on
19 those statistical considerations which I
20 think particularly when you are dealing with
21 smaller rural populations may skew the
22 statistical viewpoint of those areas.
23 I'm also concerned in listening to
24 Congressman Houghton, the questions of farm
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1 employment, urban sprawl within the larger
2 context of sustainable development which I
3 think is a dynamic that we should at least
4 consider in drawing up the districts which
5 will be districts which will be in effect
6 for some time to come. The idea that we
7 should as a society give consideration to
8 questions of sustainable development in
9 terms of farmland and industrial and rural
10 development is something I would like to go
11 on record with.
12 I think for a large part that the
13 methodology of one-man/one-vote majority
14 rule suffered a real beating this last
15 presidential election and that raises the
16 question then of the pure statistical
17 population question as it involves the
18 technology of voting and how those
19 considerations may impact in either more
20 populous or more rural, poorer districts and
21 in affect you may have a population but that
22 is equal to another more affluent area but
23 you pragmatically have a significantly
24 smaller access to the voting process. I
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1 think that that's a consideration.
2 I want to point out that I'm a minority
3 member from an Assembly district that is
4 represented by a minority assemblyman and
5 it's a high-crime district. However, I'm a
6 seventh generation American and I'm a New
7 York State resident and I think I support
8 Congressman Houghton's argument for the
9 validity of maintaining the diversity in the
10 nature of these Congressional districts.
11 That is something that occurred to me as I
12 came here.
13 Also as a minority, I am particularly
14 sensitive to census data and the validity of
15 that data. I know this thing has been
16 litigated back and forth at infinitum but in
17 listening to your offer of access to the
18 data, I am aware that the data you gather is
19 largely dependent upon the data that you
20 see. So, I would ask that in gathering your
21 data, in reaching your decisions, that
22 somehow you consider some of the points that
23 I made and also that you consider that as I
24 point out with my brother running for county
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1 legislator and that case has been given to
2 the courts now.
3 However, if in making your decisions
4 regarding reapportionment and redistricting,
5 it is very probable that the precedent that
6 occurred in those cases should they be
7 litigated would be to some extent
8 controlling on these smaller state and
9 county-wide reapportionment cases, the same
10 rationale which would apply in the larger
11 Congressional and Senatorial and Assembly
12 districts may very well be determinate of
13 things which occur here within the City of
14 Buffalo and Erie County.
15 So, with those observations I will
16 close.
17 SENATOR SKELOS: Thank you, very
18 much, sir.
19 ASSEMBLYMAN PARMENT: I just have one
20 question on your statement. The
21 incarcerated population of the state is
22 counted at the point where the individuals
23 are incarcerated. So if there is a prison,
24 there is one in my Assembly district,
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1 Lakeview SHOCK, those individuals that are
2 in that facility April 1st of the year 2000
3 I believe was the census date, are counted
4 as residents of my Assembly district
5 although many of them undoubtedly come from
6 Assembly districts across the state, there
7 is certainly an argument to be made that
8 they should be counted where they were in
9 fact convicted or at least residents because
10 it does diminish the population of those
11 areas where these individuals were arrested
12 and convicted by the transportation to my
13 district or other districts in New York or
14 wherever they might have been and it does
15 influence the statistical base that we are
16 required to observe and I think the point is
17 well taken. I would say there's not much we
18 can do about it. We are constrained by the
19 census, the count people for the census,
20 where they say they were the date of the
21 census and I think to some extent that is
22 unfortunate.
23 MR. ROBINSON: I appreciate your
24 appreciation of that point but I think that
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1 perhaps in drawing your districts if you
2 find that the fair thing to do, for
3 instance, would be to some extent discount
4 that artificial, if you will, population in
5 favor of the fundamentally more fair
6 reflection of the character of your district
7 and to accord those areas which these
8 individuals, and there is a double affect
9 here with this in the fact that there is a
10 disproportionate number of individuals of
11 color and impoverished citizens I think that
12 are incorporated.
13 Now, all of the sociological issues
14 that would go into how that came about and
15 issues of fundamental fairness, whether that
16 has to do with strictly the conditions of
17 their environment or whether it's due to
18 racial profiling or whether it's due to
19 these considerations such as the judicial
20 districts you mentioned in the seventh where
21 perhaps we have an ingrained sort of
22 mentality that is somehow unfairly
23 representative of a large portion of those
24 people, I just would like that to be a
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1 consideration and even it cannot alter your
2 consideration based on the statistical
3 constraints, I would personally feel better
4 that in some manner they were addressed or
5 at least acknowledged.
6 ASSEMBLYMAN ORTLOFF: I would like to
7 point something out, very briefly. This
8 came to me a few weeks ago and I have a
9 large prison -- actually eight of them in my
10 district so I know what you are talking
11 about, primarily a rural district but we
12 also have a military base, we have a large
13 college and interestingly, I have struggled
14 with this issue of the incarcerated
15 individuals who can't vote and yet are
16 counted in the population and we draw
17 legislative districts, we have about 3,000
18 people in one legislative district that are
19 incarcerated individuals. So that person
20 really only has a few voters but the same
21 was also true with the military base,
22 relatively higher proportion of people of
23 color in the military and interestingly with
24 affirmative action and the EOP and HEOP, the
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1 same is true with the student population.
2 It's an interesting mix and as you look at
3 these issues, it might be instructive to in
4 some way relate military, students and
5 incarcerated individuals, not that they
6 don't have a lot in common but they do have
7 one thing in common, that they are usually,
8 mostly all from some place else temporarily
9 residing within a community and they all
10 have a similar disproportionate affect on
11 the politics of those communities.
12 MR. ROBINSON: You know, I draw a
13 real significant distinction between those
14 populations, in the fact that their usage of
15 the infrastructure, their participation in
16 the process and the economics of the
17 surrounding communities and even more as the
18 young lady that transplanted to Buffalo has
19 pointed out, the residual affect often
20 retirement communities, return to the
21 community and/or their families are members
22 of and integrated into those communities and
23 I think there's a very significant
24 difference.
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1 This incarceration process that we
2 practice now which really does not practice
3 rehabilitation at all, really smacks more of
4 a traffic in human beings to me.
5 SENATOR SKELOS: Thank you. Andres
6 Garcia. I believe he was here earlier and
7 he left testimony so we will make that part
8 of the record as testimony.
9 I also have testimony from Congressman
10 Jack Quinn which we will make a part of the
11 record also.
12 Our next witness is Anthony Neal.
13 MR. NEAL: I would like to say that
14 I'm here as an interested observer of the
15 political scene to offer testimony in regard
16 to the 57th District, Senate District here
17 in the State of New York.
18 As we proceed in this very important
19 process ordained by the United States
20 Constitution to draw and redraw legislative
21 districts based on the 2000 census count, it
22 is my understanding in looking at this
23 particular district that is a very important
24 district for two essential reasons as I look
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1 at the situation.
2 First of all as you know here in
3 Western New York, the City of Buffalo and
4 the City of Niagara Falls have been in a
5 state of economic decline over the past few
6 years with significant population loss. I
7 believe this population loss is also
8 reflected in the census count which brings
9 us here today.
10 However, even though this significant
11 economic decline has occurred in these two
12 regions, based on the construction of the
13 57th District as it is currently composed, I
14 believe that it's in the interest of the
15 residents in this district and of this
16 region that this district essentially remain
17 intact.
18 I believe that it would create a very
19 significant corridor in Western New York of
20 economic development and economic potential
21 to allow these two regions to function as
22 one essentially in the context of the 57th
23 District for the purpose of economic
24 development.
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1 I also believe that the communities in
2 this region have spoken by their most recent
3 election year, the election of their
4 representative, that they have essential
5 commonality of purpose in this region for
6 economic development for the areas and just
7 recently we talked about the ideas of
8 casinos in Niagara Falls and Buffalo, New
9 York. We have named the airport here, the
10 Buffalo/Niagara International Airport. So,
11 I believe that the present construction of
12 the district along with the hopes of the
13 people in this area are essentially
14 harmonious and that the district as it is
15 presently constructed should remain intact.
16 There's also another issue I think
17 that's very important as we look at this
18 particular district here in Western New
19 York. Unfortunately and yet as we live in
20 the United States and as you live here in
21 Western New York, the issue of race tends to
22 come up in very interesting circumstances.
23 I believe the issue of race has come here in
24 the discussions surrounding the 57th
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1 District as well.
2 What you have here around the issue of
3 race, you have two conflicting principles
4 established both by the United States
5 Supreme Court, one in 1977 in the case of
6 the United Jewish Community or the United
7 Jewish Organization versus Carey in 1977 and
8 Shaw versus Reno in 1993.
9 In 1977 the Supreme Court stated that
10 due to the historical nature of African
11 Americans not being able to vote and being
12 left out of the voting process, that it was
13 permissible to instruct the majority of
14 minority districts to help elect African
15 Americans to representation and not only
16 with the principle of one man/one vote but
17 to make sure that those votes when one is
18 given the right to vote, that the vote would
19 be counted and have essential meaning.
20 Singularly, however, though, in 1993,
21 the United States Supreme Court essentially
22 reversed the courts in Shaw versus Reno and
23 essentially striking down the
24 majority/minority districts in that it
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1 stated that white citizens in these
2 districts were having their rights violated
3 with the 14th Amendment to the Constitution
4 of equal protection of the laws.
5 However, subsequent to that election,
6 many African Americans who were in those
7 districts went on to seek reelection even
8 after the districts were changed. The idea
9 here is that it has been believed in past
10 times that African Americans could only be
11 elected to the office if indeed you had a
12 majority African American population in that
13 particular district.
14 The recent elections have shown that
15 African Americans can be elected to office
16 even when you don't have a majority of
17 African Americans in those districts.
18 However, the two conflicting principles
19 here, one is that if indeed the district is
20 redrawn to essentially dilute the African
21 American vote even more, it could
22 potentially cause a problem in that African
23 American representation would be lessened in
24 this particular district.
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1 Now, in this particular district, it
2 has become historical as well because the
3 first African American has been elected to
4 this district in Western New York, for
5 Upstate New York outside of New York City
6 area which is very significant indeed and I
7 do believe that if we reverse course now in
8 terms of redrawing this district which could
9 essentially negate or nullify the historical
10 importance of that particular election, you
11 would do a great disservice to the people of
12 this district who have participated in this
13 very historical undertaking in this district
14 and also run the risk of thwarting or
15 turning back the potential for economic
16 growth in this area as well as between
17 Buffalo and Niagara Falls and I just want to
18 offer this testimony in support of the
19 district as it is currently constructed for
20 the purpose of economic development and as a
21 beacon for the possibility of breakthrough
22 or racial harmony in the context of voting
23 and in the context of representation here in
24 Western New York. Thank you.
.138
1 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Excuse me, just
2 one question. The 57th Senate District,
3 Senator Brown's district is shy somewhere
4 between 45 or 55 or 60,000 people in order
5 to qualify under the deviation that we have
6 in drawing the plan. I just want to
7 encourage you, consistent with your
8 understanding of the principle that we have
9 to deal with and the articulation of the
10 importance of certain the election of
11 African Americans to the Senate of Western
12 New York but with your on-the-ground
13 understanding of this district and the
14 vicinity of this district, I just want to
15 encourage you to visit our website, take
16 advantage of it and if you or a community
17 group or anyone has any interest in how we
18 can reconcile the principles that you have
19 talked about with drawing a new district
20 that has to have at least 50,000 more people
21 or 45,000 more people in it, we would just
22 appreciate your insight, your input and
23 advice on that and I want to encourage you
24 to do that if you can.
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1 MR. NEAL: Okay. Thank you.
2 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Thank you.
3 SENATOR SKELOS: Theodore Kirkland.
4 MR. KIRKLAND: Good afternoons,
5 Senators and members of the Committee. I am
6 here as a private citizen speaking on my own
7 even though I'm associated with two media
8 outlets, Buffalo Radio and Challenge
9 Newspaper.
10 I would like you to just for a moment
11 visualize Buffalo, New York in your head for
12 just a minute, just what it looks like.
13 Buffalo, New York is the second largest city
14 in the state and yet when we look at the
15 Assembly district, we have one total
16 Assembly district within the boundaries of
17 Buffalo and seven others taken up a portion
18 of Buffalo all around this Assembly district
19 and Buffalo has a population of close to
20 300,000 give or take a little bit. There is
21 some argument there about the last census as
22 to whether it was 290 or 300 or whatever the
23 case may be but somewhere in that neighbor,
24 which means basically that we probably could
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1 have somewhere in the rang of at least maybe
2 three and for sure two Assembly districts
3 within the boundaries of the City of
4 Buffalo.
5 When you take a look at that map again
6 and we look at the Senate district, we see
7 the 57th Senatorial District which is
8 represented by Senator Brown and we see the
9 58th Senatorial District. The 58th
10 Senatorial District sort of wraps around the
11 57th like a baseball glove.
12 Again, I think we can have a Senate
13 seat within the City of Buffalo. Without
14 that Senate seat of the 57th which
15 represents a large portion of the African
16 Americans here in Buffalo and straight out
17 into Grand Island and all the way up to
18 Niagara Falls, that's a lot of diversity, a
19 lot of different kinds of social problems et
20 cetera, et cetera.
21 If we could move, whatever and put back
22 like it used to be maybe 20 years ago, there
23 was a census that was basically within the
24 bounds of the City of Buffalo, Buffalo has
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1 unique problems as most of you are aware of.
2 Of course unemployment, educational
3 problems, crime problems et cetera and it
4 needs a full-time Senator right here.
5 I'm sure that that can be done. I'm
6 sure that we can certainly have more than
7 one Assembly district within the City of
8 Buffalo and again at least a Senate seat for
9 the City of Buffalo. I will not get into
10 why things are the way they are or what
11 happened et cetera. There are all kinds of
12 excuses and reasons floating around but
13 Buffalo being unique as it is, being the
14 second largest city, I do not know of
15 another city of the size of Buffalo and you
16 may, I don't, that does not have its own
17 Senator.
18 We don't have a Senator in the City of
19 Buffalo that handles the social problems and
20 other kinds of problems within the City of
21 Buffalo and I'm pretty that that can be done
22 and I hope that this honorable body would
23 have some sort of impact or influence in
24 doing just that.
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1 It has taken us, us I mean the African
2 American community, quite some time to be
3 represented in the Senate here in the City
4 of Buffalo. There have been attempts made,
5 people running for office over a number of
6 years. I was one of them. I ran in 1984.
7 There were many people who ran before me and
8 unsuccessful. Senator Brown has been
9 successful and I think it would be a
10 miscarriage of justice and also
11 counterproductive if in fact this district
12 were made more difficult for an African
13 American to run in this particular area of
14 the State of New York.
15 Again, I just want to impress upon you
16 that as far as the Assembly district is
17 concerned, I'm pretty sure we can at least
18 have two Assembly districts and three Senate
19 districts within the City of Buffalo.
20 Thank you.
21 ASSEMBLYMAN ORTLOFF: I just have one
22 question. As I look at, I have a map here
23 that shows the distribution of non-Hispanic,
24 black population and as I look at this,
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1 there's a congruence between Senator Brown's
2 district and the African American population
3 in the vicinity. I wasn't here ten years
4 ago but I think it's a safe conclusion that
5 this district was drawn to maximize the
6 percentage of African Americans following
7 the Voting Rights Act which is not a mandate
8 but it's a very strong suggestion.
9 MR. KIRKLAND: Did he maximize?
10 ASSEMBLYMAN ORTLOFF: I think it was.
11 If you look at the 57th District, it goes
12 out of its way to come up through Grand
13 Island with a very small population at all
14 and to include the African American.
15 MR. KIRKLAND: It minimizes, Senator,
16 I think once you begin to move out of
17 Buffalo into Grand Island and all the way up
18 that area, it minimizes the impact of the
19 African American. It looks good on paper
20 but once you start moving out of that area
21 --
22 ASSEMBLYMAN ORTLOFF: Yes. I hear
23 you. Your point is well taken that perhaps
24 it's a more difficult district to represent
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1 because of its stretch.
2 MR. KIRKLAND: Of course.
3 ASSEMBLYMAN ORTLOFF: My question
4 would be to you, as an outsider looking in,
5 seeing only sketchy things, fill me in. If
6 supposing we were to take Niagara Falls and
7 Grand Island away and expand into the rest
8 of the City of Buffalo, it looks to me like
9 the area you would be expanding into would
10 be a higher percentage of white and
11 supposing, I'm just guessing, I don't have
12 the data but supposing you were to find that
13 instead of -- what's the percentage of
14 African Americans in 57 now, about 42
15 percent?
16 MR. KIRKLAND: The percentage within
17 the 57th, I couldn't give you an accurate
18 figure.
19 ASSEMBLYMAN ORTLOFF: All right, it's
20 percent, okay, so about 84,000 to 100 some
21 thousand. Now, supposing that number were
22 to go down from 34 to 28 percent.
23 MR. KIRKLAND: By doing what, sir?
24 ASSEMBLYMAN ORTLOFF: By including
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1 more of the City of Buffalo.
2 MR. KIRKLAND: It wouldn't go down.
3 That would have to go up. The African
4 Americans in the City of Buffalo are not
5 confined to any specific location in
6 Buffalo. They are scattered all over the
7 City of Buffalo. It would have to go up.
8 ASSEMBLYMAN ORTLOFF: So you believe,
9 okay, what I'm getting at is, do you think
10 Senator Brown would be able to be reelected
11 in that district?
12 MR. KIRKLAND: Well, I think so but I
13 think it goes beyond that. I'm talking
14 about in terms of the diversity of problems
15 within the City of Buffalo versus Grand
16 Island. It is not just -- the problem is, I
17 think you need to be here to be able to deal
18 with the types of problems that we are
19 confronted with in the City of Buffalo,
20 regardless of who the assemblyman would be.
21 We have problems with crime, education,
22 poverty, you name it, family
23 destabilization, all of that. That's a hell
24 of a lot different than, excuse my language,
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1 than Grand Island. So, that becomes the key
2 factor here.
3 ASSEMBLYMAN ORTLOFF: Okay. Thank
4 you.
5 MR. KIRKLAND: Thank you.
6 ASSEMBLYMAN PARMENT: I have one
7 question, sir. So I'm clear about your
8 testimony and I don't want to put words in
9 your mouth, but my understanding of what you
10 were saying is that your belief in regard to
11 the Assembly lines would be that it's better
12 for Buffalo to have resident members of the
13 Assembly representing Buffalo than to have
14 members that would be in the urban towns and
15 sort of nibbling away at the edge of
16 Buffalo. Did I understand that correctly?
17 MR. KIRKLAND: Yes.
18 ASSEMBLYMAN PARMENT: Okay.
19 MR. KIRKLAND: We have now, as you
20 well know, I think it's eight Assembly
21 districts representing -- the largest
22 portion is represented by Assemblyman Eves.
23 That's right within the core, the center of
24 Buffalo and along the edges, we have
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1 something like seven other Assembly
2 districts who take a portion of Buffalo and
3 go out into suburbia.
4 Now, of course, I believe they probably
5 would spend most of their time in suburbia
6 representing the views of suburbia, not
7 Buffalo and Buffalo needs that type of
8 representation in Buffalo.
9 ASSEMBLYMAN PARMENT: Thank you.
10 SENATOR SKELOS: Michael Heftka,
11 Councilman of Grand Island.
12 MR. HEFTKA: Good afternoon. Thank
13 you for this opportunity. I suppose the
14 timing is pretty interesting, having just
15 heard some testimony regarding the City of
16 Buffalo.
17 The Town of Grand Island is a town of
18 18,621 people. That's what the Census
19 Department tells us and we sit in the
20 Niagara River right between Buffalo and
21 Niagara Falls. In a situation like this and
22 the discussion of numbers and the discussion
23 of race, of economics comes up, certainly a
24 town of 18,000 people might pail in this
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1 discussion and so the reason I'm here today
2 is just to encourage you to look at it
3 seriously when you look at drawing the
4 lines. You know, Grand Island is a unique
5 town and I'm certainly sure that as you go
6 across the state, everyone will tell you,
7 I'm a unique town but what makes Grand
8 Island even more unique at least in our view
9 and of course it's a tainted view, is that
10 number one, we are completely surrounded by
11 water. The Niagara River completely goes
12 around us. It makes a challenge to work
13 with neighboring communities on things like
14 trash or fire protection or policing.
15 The other thing that makes Grand Island
16 unique and what makes it very important for
17 us in terms of our state representation is
18 that in our small town of Grand Island, we
19 have two state parks. In fact one of them
20 has the only beach in the upper Niagara
21 River. The island has the state thruway
22 that bisects, goes right across it. The
23 main policing enforcement on Grand Island
24 along with the county sheriff is the New
.149
1 York State police and the state parks police
2 and Grand Island is the only town in our
3 area, probably throughout the state,
4 wherefore every one of these 18,000 people
5 to get home at the end of the day, they have
6 to use the New York State Thruway, have to
7 pay a toll to get home.
8 So, what makes it important for us on
9 Grand Island is that our representatives
10 both in the Assembly and in the State Senate
11 have a very good familiarity with the town,
12 have taken the time to learn about the town
13 and will represent us in those particular
14 discussions.
15 Our Assemblyman Sam Hoyt has gone out
16 of his way over the past years to learn a
17 lot about Grand Island and has done a
18 marvelous job and in the very short period
19 of time, our State Senator Byron Brown has
20 gone out of his way to learn about Grand
21 Island and in fact between Assemblyman Hoyt
22 and Senator Brown, the issue, one of the
23 biggest issues on Grand Island is the Seneca
24 Nation land claim. They have taken up the
.150
1 fight, have educated themselves very well on
2 that particular issue.
3 So as you look at drawing the lines,
4 what I'm asking of you today is not to look
5 at Grand Island as simply a small town with
6 18,000 people that can be plotted anywhere,
7 but take a serious look at that town, its
8 dependency on the state, its need for good
9 state representation and the need for those
10 representatives to be familiar with the
11 town.
12 I thank you for your time.
13 SENATOR SKELOS: Thank you. Our next
14 witness is Al Thompson.
15 MR. THOMPSON: Good afternoon. In
16 any process like this where there's a
17 significant amount of data that has been
18 gathered such as census information, that
19 plays a very, very significant role on the
20 decisions that are made but in this case I
21 think you have to balance the subjective
22 opinion with the supposedly objective aspect
23 of just gathering data and I'll tell you
24 what I mean.
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1 Buffalo is a city now according to the
2 census that is under 300,000 but in my
3 reading of the census there was a sampling
4 procedure which has been used in the past to
5 refine the numbers that with this census has
6 not been used, is that correct? That is
7 correct.
8 Now, to me that tells me --
9 SENATOR SKELOS: Who are you asking
10 if it's correct?
11 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I was simply
12 acknowledging that there was a discussion at
13 the federal level about the use of sampling
14 data. The Census Bureau of the United
15 States through its own internal procedures
16 determined that that information would not
17 be available to the states either for
18 Congressional reapportionment or at this
19 time for the reapportionment of the
20 Legislature.
21 So, that data my understanding is
22 either compiled or in the Census Bureau or
23 somewhere because someone did an analysis of
24 it but at this point the Census Bureau has
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1 not elected to release that information to
2 the state in any form. It's there. They
3 aren't giving it up.
4 MR. THOMPSON: It's not being used.
5 So, the information that we have about the
6 population of Western New York, the 57th
7 Senatorial District in particular, it's
8 flawed. The numbers that you are receiving
9 right now are inaccurate but there are some
10 very weighty decisions based upon these
11 numbers. So what I would ask of the folks
12 who are going to be drawing these lines is
13 to take into consideration that the
14 information that they have about the census,
15 about the population, about the City of
16 Buffalo, about the minority population in
17 particular which is severely undercounted,
18 is flawed.
19 Now, a statement has been made that the
20 Senatorial seat as it exists now perhaps was
21 drawn to increase African American
22 representation within it. Well, the
23 movement of a line with that Senatorial seat
24 as been in a westerly and northerly
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1 direction. The African American population
2 in Western New York has been moving towards
3 the east and the north. There are large
4 sections of the African American population
5 that now reside in Lovejoy, now reside in
6 parts of the Fillmore District of the City
7 of Buffalo that are not represented within
8 the 57th District.
9 This goes back to the claim that was
10 being presented to you earlier that if the
11 lines moved in a certain direction within
12 the city, it would actually increase the
13 African American population within the 57th.
14 You have to take these things into
15 consideration when you are making decisions
16 like this because you are making a decision
17 about people's lives. There is a
18 possibility that the Senatorial
19 representation of Western New York could
20 decrease, that what we now have in the two
21 Senatorial districts could be possibly be
22 merged into one. That would be a grave
23 miscarriage of justice to this region, a
24 region that has a high degree of poverty,
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1 that has some of the most despair and poor
2 folks in this entire state living right
3 here, a region that has been bypassed by the
4 economic boom that happened in the nineties.
5 The African American population in
6 Western New York are very concerned about
7 how these lines are going to be drawn
8 because we were hoping that on a county
9 level that our representation might have a
10 chance to increase. A plan had been put
11 forth that created the possibility at a
12 county level that African American
13 representation could possibly increase from
14 two seats to three. That possibility as
15 each and every day passes, seems to be more
16 and more remote, that our population, the
17 African American population within the
18 county, from the County Legislature would
19 still remain just two seats.
20 Now we are looking at a state level,
21 the possibility now of our first African
22 American senator possibly running in a seat
23 that very well may be much more difficult
24 for him to win. That would be a terrible
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1 blow to the morale in this region.
2 Senator Brown is one of our brightest
3 stars. The African American population is
4 32 percent, roughly. The Hispanic
5 population is roughly three percent in the
6 57th Senatorial District but whenever you
7 plan any and design something, you always
8 have to take into future consideration as
9 well. You have the African American
10 population growing. The Hispanic population
11 is growing. All of these factors should be
12 taken into account when designing these
13 lines and I would say to you that it would
14 be a terrible blow to the morale of the
15 African Americans if the 57th District was
16 designed in such a fashion that one of our
17 own representatives would have a great deal
18 of difficulty in continuing to represent us.
19 Thank you.
20 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Do you have any
21 evidence at this time either from the City
22 Planning Department of from the County
23 Planning Department or in your community
24 based work that shows particular areas
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1 either in the 57th Senate District or other
2 parts of the City of Buffalo where you can
3 identify areas of an undercount or where a
4 statistical sampling would show that there
5 are actually more people living there than,
6 on April 1st, 2000 than the census has told
7 us?
8 MR. THOMPSON: I personally cannot do
9 that. I don't have the resources at my
10 fingertips to do so. I don't know whether
11 or not the city is planning to perform such
12 a sampling but what I do know is that the
13 Census Bureau itself believes that the
14 information it has, that it gathered about
15 the populations throughout all the major
16 metropolitan areas in this nation, they
17 believe that that information is flawed.
18 They believe that the minority communities
19 in particular are undercounted and I'm going
20 to take their word for that and I think they
21 have the resources to correct the problem
22 but currently they are being prevented from
23 doing so.
24 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I happen to, as a
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1 political matter, to agree with you but in
2 order for us to take into account the issue
3 of people who are missed in the census, it
4 seems to me that we would need some evidence
5 of where those missed people, those
6 undercounted people actually live.
7 For example, if you said, and I come
8 from Rochester, the City of Rochester that
9 estimates that the population was
10 undercounted by about two, two and a half
11 percent. That's the city's estimate but for
12 reapportionment, because we have to draw
13 lines, one of the things we could do, we
14 could elect to do this, is to if we believe
15 there is evidence of an undercount, we could
16 with respect to the Senate and Assembly
17 districts, make them on a smaller side of
18 the deviation scale, in other words, we have
19 an ability to deviate by ten percent from
20 the largest to the smallest and if we felt
21 that there was evidence, some evidence of an
22 undercount, we could scale those districts
23 at the smaller end, for example, instead of
24 having 315 or 320,000 people, if we felt
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1 there was an undercount in a particular
2 area, we could draw that area in the
3 district that had only 305,000 people.
4 That's why I would just encourage you to do
5 that.
6 Again, I don't know quite how to do
7 this because I agree with you. The Census
8 Bureau has resources. They know. They have
9 elected not to do that but if there is any
10 evidence that you are aware of on the local
11 level that might help us try to determine
12 where specifically the undercount exists, it
13 could be a factor in the way we draw the
14 size of a particular district, whether it be
15 the 54th Senate District or any other
16 district.
17 I would just encourage you to do that
18 if you can.
19 MR. THOMPSON: And I sympathize with
20 you because what I'm hearing you tell me and
21 the rest of the folks here is that you know
22 there is an undercount, that you know the
23 data that you have is flawed but unless we,
24 the citizen who will be the most severely
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1 affected by this come forth and do what the
2 Census Bureau should do, then you are
3 knowingly going to draw those lines and
4 disenfranchise folks that you know have been
5 miscounted.
6 Now, I don't believe you want to be
7 guilty of anything like that.
8 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I don't but my
9 point is this: That at least as it
10 currently stands, we don't have any data and
11 we have had a discussion in this Task Force
12 about trying to go get other data by trying
13 to determine but we have made no decision
14 about what, if any, avenues we have
15 available to go get the statistically
16 altered data, the statistically sampled data
17 but putting that aside, we may not choose as
18 a Task Force to do that. That's something
19 that the six members of this Task Force will
20 decide but if we don't do it, I for one
21 would still be interested in hearing any
22 information that anybody has that I could
23 develop, that you could develop. We had the
24 same problem in Rochester and I'm just
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1 encouraging you as part of this process, I'm
2 not saying it's easy and I believe
3 personally and politically that the
4 statistically sampled data should have been
5 released. It should have been made
6 available. I have said that publicly but we
7 don't have it right now and that's why if we
8 had any information about where the
9 undercount exists, where specifically it
10 exists, it might be an asset to us in a
11 determination about how big we make
12 districts that we think may be undercounted.
13 MR. THOMPSON: I think our community
14 organization could point you in that
15 direction but we are talking about folks who
16 aren't scientists. We are talking about
17 folks who don't work for the Census. I
18 would think in the interest of being fair,
19 that the Task Force would take this into
20 very serious consideration and try somehow
21 to refine the numbers that you currently
22 have because you have got bad data and I
23 know you don't want to make a decision based
24 on bad data, especially when it's going to
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1 affect the lives of people for the next ten
2 years.
3 Thank you.
4 SENATOR SKELOS: Thank you. Our next
5 speaker is Senator Byron Brown.
6 SENATOR BROWN: Good afternoon. As a
7 State Senator for the 57th District, allow
8 me just to just a moment to welcome my
9 colleagues from the State Legislature and
10 the other members of the Legislative Task
11 Force for Demographic Research and
12 Reapportionment to the 57th District, City
13 of Buffalo and the Buffalo/Niagara region.
14 Like Congressman Houghton who spoke in
15 favor of maintaining the 31st Congressional
16 District, I'm here today to speak about
17 maintaining the 57th State Senate District
18 because of its importance to the people of
19 the Buffalo/Niagara region.
20 Let me say at the very beginning, I'm
21 very proud to represent the 57th District
22 and equally proud of the fact that when I
23 was elected to represent the 57th District
24 in November of 2000, I made history both
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1 locally and statewide.
2 The 57th District is truly a community
3 of shared interests which contributes in
4 many ways to binding people in the
5 Buffalo/Niagara region together. The 57th
6 District contains a majority of the
7 Buffalo/Niagara region's African American
8 community, a majority of the region's Latino
9 community and many members of the white
10 community.
11 The district is approximately 65
12 percent white, all that share many
13 commonalities.
14 The Buffalo/Niagara region for several
15 decades as you have heard from others who
16 have spoken before me, has been under
17 tremendous economic stress and which has
18 resulted in population loss and unemployment
19 that sadly is higher than the statewide
20 average. Our region is now starting to move
21 in the right direction. In the 57th
22 District people have begun to build
23 interracial and regional coalitions which
24 are critical to the future of our region.
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1 These bonds must be kept intact.
2 Yes, our community has begun to employ
3 various regional approaches to strengthening
4 itself and the 57th District provides a
5 crucial link between the Cities of Buffalo
6 and Niagara Falls and Erie and Niagara
7 Counties.
8 The district links are the region's two
9 largest cities, Buffalo and Niagara Falls
10 and two of our older northern suburbs, Grand
11 Island and part of the City of Tonawanda,
12 block clubs and neighborhood associations
13 have started planning in community
14 stabilizing strategies. The Buffalo
15 Convention and Business Bureau has changed
16 its name to the Buffalo/Niagara Convention
17 and Visitors Bureau.
18 In the 57th District we are a community
19 of interest because we live in the same
20 region which is beginning to adopt regional
21 approaches to planning, economic
22 development, housing development and tourism
23 promotion. We depend on the same government
24 for service, use the same parks, shop in the
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1 same stores, use the same public
2 transportation system and depend on the same
3 local economy and employers for our
4 prosperity.
5 The 57th District reflects and embraces
6 diversity of the community. As you redraw
7 the lines of the various political
8 subdivisions, please keep the nucleus of the
9 57th District intact and expand it based on
10 its present characteristics.
11 In closing, like an earlier speaker
12 from the League of Women Voters, I urge you
13 to complete the reapportionment process as
14 soon as possible and make the new district
15 boundaries available in early 2002. This
16 will facilitate citizens knowing what
17 district they are in and not having a
18 negative impact on voter participation
19 statewide.
20 Thank you very much.
21 SENATOR SKELOS: Thank you, Senator.
22 We have another witness, Joseph Golombek,
23 Jr., North District Councilman.
24 MR. GOLOMBEK: Good afternoon. The
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1 request that I have is going to be very
2 simple.
3 The Black Rock/Riverside area, the
4 northwest section of Buffalo is basically
5 one community. It's the 14207 zip code. I
6 would request that that neighborhood be kept
7 together as one neighborhood in one Assembly
8 district and in one Senate district.
9 Thank you, very much.
10 SENATOR SKELOS: Thank you. That
11 completes our list. Do I have a motion to
12 adjourn?
13 ASSEMBLYMAN ORTLOFF: So moved.
14 SENATOR SKELOS: No objection, the
15 meeting is adjourned. Thank you.
16 (PROCEEDINGS CONCLUDED)
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